Does science make belief in God obsolete?

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Postby dinowuff » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:43 pm

If I remember correctly. Any scientific endeavor begins with an idea. This idea is then proven or more often disproved.

Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy wrote:BABEL FISH :

The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.


The statement Proof Denies Faith is probably the root of both sides of the argument. Think of all the people that would be devastated by proof of Gods existence.
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Postby DaFoxx » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:43 pm

god bless Hitchhikers Guide :)
was reading up on some number theory, and ran across another mention of HGTTU
and that was in a paper on Riemann zeta function

source - http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/03/pr ... php?page=2

Riemann's equation transformed the primes into points at sea-level in the zeta landscape. But then Riemann noticed that it did something even more incredible. As he marked the locations of the first 10 zeros, a rather amazing pattern began to emerge. The zeros weren't scattered all over; they seemed to be running in a straight line through the landscape. Riemann couldn't believe this was just a coincidence. He proposed that all the zeros, infinitely many of them, would be sitting on this critical line—a conjecture that has become known as the Riemann Hypothesis.


further research into this got to :-
There is an important sequence of numbers called "the moments of the Riemann zeta function." Although we know abstractly how to define it, mathematicians have had great difficulty explicitly calculating the numbers in the sequence. We have known since the 1920s that the first two numbers are 1 and 2, but it wasn't until a few years ago that mathematicians conjectured that the third number in the sequence may be 42—a figure greatly significant to those well-versed in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.



I read some shite me :P
and no, I do not know what set me off onto that tangent :P :)
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Postby Aspman » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:32 am

DaFoxx wrote:god bless Hitchhikers Guide :)


That, is a sublime comment Foxy.
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Postby James » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:06 pm

Ya know, honestly, my views of this have evolved rather radically as I've gotten older, to eventually I have landed in the middle, present-day. Heck, even since I've known Eg, I've gradually grown from a more stiff position of trying to defend everything to a more laid-back, open-minded, receptive mode of thought.

All that said, I believe in both science and God and don't see conflict between the two. At the same time, I do not believe science does or can reveal all the answers of the universe. Likewise, I do not believe what science does reveal should be ignored because it doesn't "fit" with someone's ideal.
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Postby DaFoxx » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:19 pm

James wrote:Ya know, honestly, my views of this have evolved rather radically as I've gotten older, to eventually I have landed in the middle, present-day. Heck, even since I've known Eg, I've gradually grown from a more stiff position of trying to defend everything to a more laid-back, open-minded, receptive mode of thought.


it's jst after an Eg barrage anyone will convert just to shut him up :shock: :P :)

I'm not kidding, I reckon Eg was a pope, or IS god in hiding [like in Dogma, only more active :)]

I have read a lot of his diatribes on religion, and I have had ti google a HELL of a lot of references

and a lot of those don't really respond to a search engine type check

I DO belive Eg must have spent quite a portion of his ill gotten past in a seminary

he knows a lot of the crap involved in religion
anw WILL wear you down

be proud JJ
took him years to get you
:P :)
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Postby Egaladeist » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:20 pm

it's jst after an Eg barrage anyone will convert just to shut him up


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Postby James » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:22 pm

Well, I'll tell ya what, I agree with Eg just as often as I disagree with him, honestly. But if anything rings true, he's one of the truest to his guns and most consistent folks I've run into. I have never left an Eg conversation lacking deep thought on a matter.

Meanwhile, personally, I think I've reached a point where I'm firm in my core beliefs, but now I've got room for and am full of the "why/how/where/when" questions I want to explore to better understand and hone those beliefs.

If anything, I've learned closed-minded people on both sides of the line serve to do nothing more than muddy everything up. :shock:
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Postby DaFoxx » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:24 pm

James wrote:If anything, I've learned closed-minded people on both sides of the line serve to do nothing more than muddy everything up. :shock:


amen to that brother

and I don't say THAT too often :P :)
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Postby Kwiep » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:42 am

It's actually quite nice too see noone really took the atheist route here.

Anyway, as I see it, the whole lot of physics chemistry etc, maybe not math, but just aswell, they all try to catch the world arround us in simplifications, abstractions and models. We still don't really know what's inside an atom, we can just calculate some stuff on it. There is no such thing as electric or magnetic "fields", we just use the concept of a field to calculate stuff, so we can build nice computers. Science is like a handpainting of the world, it can look very photorealistic, it's still just a depiction of the real thing.

This doesn't mean I don't belief in de models I know (I've an electrical engineering background), because I know they work and I know WHEN they work. I do think science, wich is never gonne be "finished", and spirituality, are two different things. I think science will never tell us what happens when you die. It's current hypothesis is "nothing" because in the biochemist model of a human being, nothing seems to happen after you die. Still just a model. And even within that model without mathematical proof afaik, but I'm no biochemist.
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Re:

Postby romanticcowboy » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:04 am

Vorlin wrote:I would say that science doesn't make God obsolete and neither does the existence of God make science obsolete. There are quite a few things I'd like to bring in to this:

1) It's always been asked by just about everyone that if God is such a loving omniscient, then why would he let these things happen? My personal answer is that he gives us the choice for everything. Nothing is crammed down our throats and forced upon us. One can choose to be an atheist or choose to be involved in a religion of their choice. I personally think atheists are wimping out because it's easier to commit to (aka, not going to church ever, not doing anything that any religion dictates is "right" like reading the bible, leading by example, etc). While that might be enticing, I've always lived by the phrase "If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything" and one thing I find hilariously hypocritical is that just about everyone will call for help from God when something's going wrong...(aka "OH GOD HELP ME"), even the atheists who don't believe in God.

2) Concerning things like Christmas and the celebration of Christ's birth and how the dates don't coordinate together, well you have to remember that mankind was the one who wrote the bible almost entirely and how much has it changed over time? There's who knows how many types of bibles out there and too many religious zealots stating "Mine is right, you're is wrong" and that doesn't help anything.

3) Just because someone studies or is part of a religion doesn't mean they're good. I live right down the street almost literally from the 1 of 2 permanent gypsy camps in the USA. They live in these gaudy huge houses (one looks like a hotel), drive EXPENSIVE trucks (the men), SUVs (generally women), and Lincolns/Cadillacs (women with the girls). In EVERY yard is a statue of the virgin Mary as they're all catholic. They WORSHIP catholicism like no other....yet at the same time, they get their money by ripping off people up north by doing concrete work with watered down concrete, painting using cheap paint with some water in it, roofing with cheap materials, the list goes on...they don't do any of that around here because they'd be burned out, strung up, etc...welcome to the south!
i am a christian , i agree with the first part god does give us free will ,it is also not my place to judge that is gods job what happens is so many Christians/Catholics get caught up in trying to be go rather than worshiping him ,its really not my place to judge them ether but what i just spoke is the truth , god gives everyone free will to make desiscions , true Christianity is about loving everyone and realizing your not supposed to be fighting against people but resisting temptation and keeping your eyes on Jesus , and depending on god more than anything or anyone , because in the end he is the only one that doesn't let me down
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