Does science make belief in God obsolete?

The place for any religious and/or philosophical discussions, treatise, absolutions, ramblings, etc...

Does science make belief in God obsolete?

Postby Ally » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:24 am

Does science make belief in God obsolete?

You can read, or download a pdf booklet about this very subject

HERE

It has answers to the question from both sides of the debate.
Scientia potentia est - Knowledge is Power
User avatar
Ally
Our Lady of the Bay
 
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:43 am
Location: N.S.W. Australia

Postby Harbinger » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:54 am

Great find. I've already read two of these. To me it seems that the answer to this question is purely reliant on what the definition or use of "God" is.

I say science does, but only to those who use a belief in God to understand the world and life in a functional sense.

I say science does not to those where God is more of a philosohpical icon, inspiration, or psychological support. To sound utterly contradictory--a literal embodiment of an abstract.
"I am never wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken."
User avatar
Harbinger
Aspiring Anti-Christ
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:01 am
Location: University X

Postby THE Doctor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:27 am

Interesting.. I have read where Science actually supports a belief in God..

But then we will always be happiest reading what supports our point of view... and be able to pick holes in what doesn't agree..

For some reason many religious people reject science outright..

Like the "Ultimate Question of Life the universe and everything".. the Answer (42) and the question can not exist in the same universe....

But then pure science is about discovery .. Religion is about Mans views.. The Church is about God or Not God.. Faith is to hold that one is correct in spite of all the other views.

So from that Science can be used to prove either argument.. and the debate becomes who has the more/most agreeable results for your view..

To argue this out is to have informed people on both sides.. to have uninformed religious people arguing science is like..like.. rabbits on a busy 6 lane freeway.. their arguments will be nothing more than roadkill. And a scientist who's only view of the bible is a "collection of stories" will end up in the same situation.. any one with that view will find that many of the God centred Faiths are based around a bit more than a bunch of children's stories..

So.. question.. What is Christmas?
1. A Christian Festival celebrating the birth of The Christ?
2. A Six week Shopping marathon base on the urging of a guy in a red suit.
3. A Pagan Winter Festival
4. A Pagan Winter Festival, that The Roman Catholic Church Hijacked, and renamed for their own political end.
5. A Pagan Festival, Shared with Christians where both sides stand back and laugh at those worshipping the Red suited guy, and those who call it The Christ's birthday.. realising that if you read the story you will know that the time of year is obviously wrong


Or this statement.. "If God was real ..how could he Allow such things to happen?"
So a Real God would have us all live as sub-servant Robots? never doing bad to anyone..



BTW.. Harbie.. I missed your 666 post.. blast .. missed the party..
.. The trouble with life is there's no background music..

Remember Grasshopper: The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
User avatar
THE Doctor
Ex Und3rtak3r from OZ
 
Posts: 6583
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm

Postby Panama Red » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:19 pm

Found this part very illuminating...

Scientologists believe that eons ago a galactic warlord named Xenu brought alien beings from another solar system to Earth, placed them in select volcanoes around the world, and then vaporized them with hydrogen bombs, scattering to the winds their souls (called thetans, in the jargon of Scientology), which attach themselves to people today, leading to drug and alcohol abuse, addiction, depression, and other psychological and social ailments that only Scientology can cure. Clearly the veracity of a proposition is independent of the number of people who believe it.
Don't know how it can actually be called a "religion", more like a part of the script for some Science Fiction movie...oh right they did make a movie and a follower of this group starred in it...(John Travolta)....and it bombed...
8)
Very good reading though and interesting to see other viewpoints from influential people..

But this debate will rage on until one of two things will happen:

1.We get a visit from extraterrestrials, or
2.We finally blow ourselves up.... :evil:
Image
User avatar
Panama Red
I come Unseen
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:14 am

Postby Egaladeist » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:30 pm

Does science make belief in God obsolete?


Science doesn't make a belief in God or Gods obsolete, and a belief in God or Gods doesn't make science obsolete either.

However the TAZ Matrix makes them both obsolete :D
User avatar
Egaladeist
I am the Eg man : Coo Coo Ca Choo
 
Posts: 18852
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:02 am
Location: Canada

Postby Ally » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:53 pm

THE Doctor wrote:
So.. question.. What is Christmas?
1. A Christian Festival celebrating the birth of The Christ?
2. A Six week Shopping marathon base on the urging of a guy in a red suit.
3. A Pagan Winter Festival
4. A Pagan Winter Festival, that The Roman Catholic Church Hijacked, and renamed for their own political end.
5. A Pagan Festival, Shared with Christians where both sides stand back and laugh at those worshipping the Red suited guy, and those who call it The Christ's birthday.. realising that if you read the story you will know that the time of year is obviously wrong


Number 4 8) The early roman church realised that the best way to get folks to convert to their belief was to say ... look, we have the same festivals as you do. If people didn't believe it, they just killed 'em.
Scientia potentia est - Knowledge is Power
User avatar
Ally
Our Lady of the Bay
 
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:43 am
Location: N.S.W. Australia

Postby THE Doctor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:54 pm

Jim wrote:Found this part very illuminating...

Scientologists believe that eons ago a galactic warlord named Xenu brought alien beings from another solar system to Earth, placed them in select volcanoes around the world, and then vaporized them with hydrogen bombs, scattering to the winds their souls (called thetans, in the jargon of Scientology), which attach themselves to people today, leading to drug and alcohol abuse, addiction, depression, and other psychological and social ailments that only Scientology can cure. Clearly the veracity of a proposition is independent of the number of people who believe it.
Don't know how it can actually be called a "religion", more like a part of the script for some Science Fiction movie...oh right they did make a movie and a follower of this group starred in it...(John Travolta)....and it bombed...
8)
Very good reading though and interesting to see other viewpoints from influential people..

But this debate will rage on until one of two things will happen:

1.We get a visit from extraterrestrials, or
2.We finally blow ourselves up.... :evil:


Scientology's founder WROTE SciFi
.. The trouble with life is there's no background music..

Remember Grasshopper: The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
User avatar
THE Doctor
Ex Und3rtak3r from OZ
 
Posts: 6583
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm

Postby Ally » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:55 pm

Harbinger wrote:Great find. I've already read two of these. To me it seems that the answer to this question is purely reliant on what the definition or use of "God" is.

I say science does, but only to those who use a belief in God to understand the world and life in a functional sense.

I say science does not to those where God is more of a philosohpical icon, inspiration, or psychological support. To sound utterly contradictory--a literal embodiment of an abstract.


God cannot be proven or disproven, I think it all comes down to what each individual believes.
Scientia potentia est - Knowledge is Power
User avatar
Ally
Our Lady of the Bay
 
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:43 am
Location: N.S.W. Australia

Postby THE Doctor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:58 pm

Ally wrote:
THE Doctor wrote:
So.. question.. What is Christmas?
1. A Christian Festival celebrating the birth of The Christ?
2. A Six week Shopping marathon base on the urging of a guy in a red suit.
3. A Pagan Winter Festival
4. A Pagan Winter Festival, that The Roman Catholic Church Hijacked, and renamed for their own political end.
5. A Pagan Festival, Shared with Christians where both sides stand back and laugh at those worshipping the Red suited guy, and those who call it The Christ's birthday.. realising that if you read the story you will know that the time of year is obviously wrong


Number 4 8) The early roman church realised that the best way to get folks to convert to their belief was to say ... look, we have the same festivals as you do. If people didn't believe it, they just killed 'em.


All Five..

But in reality - 4 is correct.. but 5 is the reality of it..
.. The trouble with life is there's no background music..

Remember Grasshopper: The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
User avatar
THE Doctor
Ex Und3rtak3r from OZ
 
Posts: 6583
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm

Postby THE Doctor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:03 pm

Ally wrote:
Harbinger wrote:Great find. I've already read two of these. To me it seems that the answer to this question is purely reliant on what the definition or use of "God" is.

I say science does, but only to those who use a belief in God to understand the world and life in a functional sense.

I say science does not to those where God is more of a philosohpical icon, inspiration, or psychological support. To sound utterly contradictory--a literal embodiment of an abstract.


God cannot be proven or disproven, I think it all comes down to what each individual believes.


The difference between belief and faith.. belief is wavered by doubt, faith continues on..
.. The trouble with life is there's no background music..

Remember Grasshopper: The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
User avatar
THE Doctor
Ex Und3rtak3r from OZ
 
Posts: 6583
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm

Postby Panama Red » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:18 pm

THE Doctor wrote:
Jim wrote:Found this part very illuminating...

Scientologists believe that eons ago a galactic warlord named Xenu brought alien beings from another solar system to Earth, placed them in select volcanoes around the world, and then vaporized them with hydrogen bombs, scattering to the winds their souls (called thetans, in the jargon of Scientology), which attach themselves to people today, leading to drug and alcohol abuse, addiction, depression, and other psychological and social ailments that only Scientology can cure. Clearly the veracity of a proposition is independent of the number of people who believe it.
Don't know how it can actually be called a "religion", more like a part of the script for some Science Fiction movie...oh right they did make a movie and a follower of this group starred in it...(John Travolta)....and it bombed...
8)
Very good reading though and interesting to see other viewpoints from influential people..

But this debate will rage on until one of two things will happen:

1.We get a visit from extraterrestrials, or
2.We finally blow ourselves up.... :evil:


Scientology's founder WROTE SciFi


I know, and it was terrible, but then he went on to dianetics, even worse... :mad:

And on that score Scientology fails both the concept of religion and Science, or in his case pseudoscience... :roll:
Image
User avatar
Panama Red
I come Unseen
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:14 am

Postby Panama Red » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:19 pm

Ally wrote:
THE Doctor wrote:
So.. question.. What is Christmas?
1. A Christian Festival celebrating the birth of The Christ?
2. A Six week Shopping marathon base on the urging of a guy in a red suit.
3. A Pagan Winter Festival
4. A Pagan Winter Festival, that The Roman Catholic Church Hijacked, and renamed for their own political end.
5. A Pagan Festival, Shared with Christians where both sides stand back and laugh at those worshipping the Red suited guy, and those who call it The Christ's birthday.. realising that if you read the story you will know that the time of year is obviously wrong


Number 4 8) The early roman church realised that the best way to get folks to convert to their belief was to say ... look, we have the same festivals as you do. If people didn't believe it, they just killed 'em.


Then they went ahead and wiped out the Druids... 8)
Image
User avatar
Panama Red
I come Unseen
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:14 am

Postby THE Doctor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:24 pm

Jim wrote:
Ally wrote:
THE Doctor wrote:
So.. question.. What is Christmas?
1. A Christian Festival celebrating the birth of The Christ?
2. A Six week Shopping marathon base on the urging of a guy in a red suit.
3. A Pagan Winter Festival
4. A Pagan Winter Festival, that The Roman Catholic Church Hijacked, and renamed for their own political end.
5. A Pagan Festival, Shared with Christians where both sides stand back and laugh at those worshipping the Red suited guy, and those who call it The Christ's birthday.. realising that if you read the story you will know that the time of year is obviously wrong


Number 4 8) The early roman church realised that the best way to get folks to convert to their belief was to say ... look, we have the same festivals as you do. If people didn't believe it, they just killed 'em.


Then they went ahead and wiped out the Druids... 8)


That is because those weak in faith.. find it easier to eliminate or torture opposition rather than convert by example and teaching..
.. The trouble with life is there's no background music..

Remember Grasshopper: The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
User avatar
THE Doctor
Ex Und3rtak3r from OZ
 
Posts: 6583
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm

Postby Panama Red » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:46 pm

I don't think is was so much a weakness in faith that prodded the Romans to eliminate the Druids as it was a "fear" that the Druids religion/magic was better and stronger then their own, at that time the Romans were still heavily into their own god's...(all of them), hence we have the "our" god is bigger then your god arguments and so it begins...
Image
User avatar
Panama Red
I come Unseen
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:14 am

Postby Vorlin » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:31 pm

I would say that science doesn't make God obsolete and neither does the existence of God make science obsolete. There are quite a few things I'd like to bring in to this:

1) It's always been asked by just about everyone that if God is such a loving omniscient, then why would he let these things happen? My personal answer is that he gives us the choice for everything. Nothing is crammed down our throats and forced upon us. One can choose to be an atheist or choose to be involved in a religion of their choice. I personally think atheists are wimping out because it's easier to commit to (aka, not going to church ever, not doing anything that any religion dictates is "right" like reading the bible, leading by example, etc). While that might be enticing, I've always lived by the phrase "If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything" and one thing I find hilariously hypocritical is that just about everyone will call for help from God when something's going wrong...(aka "OH GOD HELP ME"), even the atheists who don't believe in God.

2) Concerning things like Christmas and the celebration of Christ's birth and how the dates don't coordinate together, well you have to remember that mankind was the one who wrote the bible almost entirely and how much has it changed over time? There's who knows how many types of bibles out there and too many religious zealots stating "Mine is right, you're is wrong" and that doesn't help anything.

3) Just because someone studies or is part of a religion doesn't mean they're good. I live right down the street almost literally from the 1 of 2 permanent gypsy camps in the USA. They live in these gaudy huge houses (one looks like a hotel), drive EXPENSIVE trucks (the men), SUVs (generally women), and Lincolns/Cadillacs (women with the girls). In EVERY yard is a statue of the virgin Mary as they're all catholic. They WORSHIP catholicism like no other....yet at the same time, they get their money by ripping off people up north by doing concrete work with watered down concrete, painting using cheap paint with some water in it, roofing with cheap materials, the list goes on...they don't do any of that around here because they'd be burned out, strung up, etc...welcome to the south!
In the world of protection, one thing is for sure: security = 1 / convenience.
User avatar
Vorlin
Taz's very own Fireman [RIP]
 
Posts: 2378
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: N. Augusta, SC

Next

Return to The Cave

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron