Grim ....

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Grim ....

Postby Panama Red » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:16 pm

Man, there is something to be said about the turbulent 60's compared to today, I think I would much prefer those times then today's, everywhere you look, the news is grim, can't get away from it, nothing jumps out as being optimistic, like there is really nothing to get all excited about.

The fecking roads are terrible around here, almost lost my car in one of them the other day, it's like every year the asphalt budget is getting smaller, so the patches are getting worse and of course the plows come along in the winter and rip em up, it's unbelievable, then there is the nightly unemployment report on the news along with the latest CEO bailout or compensation package......I strongly believe if things don't turn around by the end of the year, we are going to see some really nasty riots, there is a low rumble going on and politicians are blissfully ignorant of the signs, which is good really as they will be the first to swing.

I can't believe how out of touch the politicians truly are on this planet, they have had the good life for so long they are blind to realities, they sign up strictly for the golden pensions or the book tours after their service is over, or they sue for perceived slights by other politicians (Brian Baloney for one).

I believe after this is over there will be such a divide between those that have and those that have not, that we will witness genocide by hunger before too long.....once the multi corporations have finished raping Africa the real stories will come out and there will be literally millions to feed, same goes for most of Southern Asia.

The trend has started, immigrants in the UK from Poland and elsewhere abroad are starting to return home, no work available and what's waiting for them when they get back to Poland or the Philippines....Nada....or worse.....so you will see a huge amount of displaced peoples all over the globe, feck, even illegal Mexicans are starting to go back to Mexico....(any chance the Francophones in Quebec going back to France????? just kidding) :mrgreen:


Wears a person down watching or reading the news, I think the "Cold War" actually kept things in perspective, so I blame Ronald Rayguns for the present state we are in.... :finger: (well he took credit for defeating Communist Russia, all we did was out buy the Russians when you think about it, just took our economies longer to cave in, which during the current crisis the Russians and other Eastern Bloc countries are shrugging and going wtf as they have been in this position since 1989...broke...)

It's disheartening to see such greed amongst the corporations, I mean really, how can any one person raking in millions begin to enjoy spending it, I have tried to sit and think on how I could spend 7 Million a year like some of these fat cat CEO's and Bank Presidents receive, and quite frankly after renting out the local 12,000 arena and putting bars at every corner and kegs aplenty, and inviting the entire Canadian Navy (knock it off with the jokes...Lol) to party every night, I still wouldn't be able to burn that 7 Million in a year, so why do these individuals want to keep raking it in?

Boggles the mind.......so with that being said, I think Obama taxing the upper 5% of the population of America that make over 250,000 a year is a good thing, and actually could be higher, and reduce the taxes of the other 95% the middle class and the working poor...hopefully we get the same type of attitude up here, but I ain't holding my breath on that one... :breakfast:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Aspman » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:32 pm

You think it will take to the end of the year?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... risis.html

Maybe some politicians hanging from street lights on piano wire will bring a dose of reality into their ivory towers.
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Dogbert » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:40 pm

Yeah, tax the upper 5% more, and lets see how many more jobs are lost because of it. Ever thought of the fact that most of the upper 5% are small business owners? Obviously not.... :redcard:r
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Morganlefay » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:51 pm

I highly recommend Gwynne Dyers "Climate Wars" 3 hour series talking about food crisis due to climate change...what you will like is his insight on war and conflict the causes and affect. Down right scared me :shock:


http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/podcast.html

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Re: Grim ....

Postby Egaladeist » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:38 pm

Everything has to hit the fan every once in awhile...we go though a short period of very good times, then an extended recession, into a short and violent depression, which results in a major war someplace...which causes a rise in employment and shortly after back to a short period of very good times...

and it just keeps repeating itself.
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Panama Red » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:20 pm

Dogbert wrote:Yeah, tax the upper 5% more, and lets see how many more jobs are lost because of it. Ever thought of the fact that most of the upper 5% are small business owners? Obviously not.... :redcard:r


So if your in that bracket and are making 50 million a year, you couldn't pay more into the tax system?, I understand small businesses would also fall into that bracket, not many as I am mainly griping about the super rich, or CEO's of large companies unless you think it's ok for AIG to lose 160 Billion dollars and hold it's hand out for more bailout money.

Also lets not forget, that even the small businesses manage to find the loopholes that middle class workers can not use, i.e. Work from home and claim a certain percentage of the utilities as a business expense, or the fuel in the vehicle, as well as the lunches.....there are ways to find tax loopholes and the rich manage to find them all... :cool3:

Lets also not forget that if you disenfranchise the middle class, your small businesses will fail as there will be no one to buy their products, so more money in their (middle class) pockets will be spent, more money in the hands of the rich, find it's way to offshore accounts and risky financial investments.....D'oh well there you have it, now we know why the Financial system is in the toilet, the rich seeking to get richer, invested unwisely, so the return on their millions are useless paper and they lose their original investment...am I crying, fecking hardly......the rich deserve what they so loosely sowed and in spades....why does a CEO need to receive a generous cash bonus for driving the business into the ground, if you did that to your family budget, the Banks would place a lien on your home and evict you, no one is going to come running and bail you out...unless the parents are generous, but if they are in their 70's don't expect too much from them either... :breakfast:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Dogbert » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:56 pm

They can hold their hands out for all the money they want. The problem is that they are actually getting the money.

CEO's do what they are contracted to do. Find ways to keep the company in business, and make the shareholders happy. If they fail to meet their contractual obligations they don't get their bonuses, etc. Sure, raise the taxes on the very people that have the jobs available for their employees, and the employees will no longer be employees.

Almost like people that claim it's "my job..." bullshit, it's your employer's job.. you are just getting paid to work in that position for now. :bodyguard:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Panama Red » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:24 pm

Dogbert wrote:CEO's do what they are contracted to do. Find ways to keep the company in business, and make the shareholders happy. If they fail to meet their contractual obligations they don't get their bonuses, etc. .


I agree with this, however Wall Street and the big corporation of both countries don't adhere to that, when CEO's drive their businesses into the ground they are "bought out" of their existing front end loaded contracts, something like a professional athlete that gets traded, the old team still has to pick up their salary even though he isn't playing for them anymore (A-Rod and Texas and Ramirez and Boston for example) What sort of idiot practice is that, will my employer pay me a years wages to go and work for someone else, sure if it's in my contract.... :cool3: So who the hell draws up these contracts..."lawyers" (drum roll)....off with their heads...:P

Remember not that long ago Exxon and the Accounting firm responsible for their books, bilked thousands of employees of their pensions, is that right, did the shareholders of Exxon get their slice of the pie of what was left? I am sure as shite they did, so it comes down to ethics and morality and unfortunately there ain't a whole of the good kind on Wall Street...

How about these large corporations that file for protection and then a couple of years later after restructuring (laying off thousands as it's the workers who are the first to get restructured) they change a few letters in their company logo or re-invent themselves and voila, they get instant credit again from the stupid banks and the process repeats itself all over again, yet a home owner files for protection and gets their wages garnisheed and lose anything of value and have a black mark on their credit history for at least 5 to 7 yrs, can't change their names to get around that, or re-invent themselves...

What is going to happen and what should have happened during the Republican's watch is regulate and ensure the laws are being followed and prosecute those who break them.They knew for years the building industry was on thin ice and the mortgage lending was criminal, yet turned a blind eye because the investors were raking in the money...well guess what that bubble burst and that is basically what started the whole process of the downfall of Wall Street and the banking industry, Warren Buffet made this known 2 yrs ago, not the richest man on the planet for nothing this guy...and he's now laughing all the way to his bank as he buys up real estate which will increase in value in a few years, so now it's a buyers market thanks to the over inflated prices falling through the floor (pun intended)... :breakfast:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Dogbert » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:48 pm

But you never ever ever help the economy by raising taxes. Higher taxes, less revenue coming into the gov't. These lovely democrats are "rolling back the bush tax cuts...." What they're really doing is raising taxes on everyone, not just the "top 5%."

Turned a blind eye to the mortgage lending? Are you kidding me, Freddie and Fannie (government backed) were forcing banks to make the loans that they didn't want to make in the first place thanks to the pushing from the democrats. :breakfast:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Panama Red » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:38 pm

Dogbert wrote:
Turned a blind eye to the mortgage lending? Are you kidding me, Freddie and Fannie (government backed) were forcing banks to make the loans that they didn't want to make in the first place thanks to the pushing from the democrats. :breakfast:



And the Republicans let them because they what? Had a gun to their head, nobody twisted their arms to the point where they said...hey wait a minute, if we keep doing this the economy is going down the toilet...

Oh and I suppose the Billions they spent on the war(s) didn't have anything to do with this as well right? A) Iraq was illegal and sucked billions of monies that only God and Cheney knows went where..... B)The contracts awarded to American companies were paid by the Republicans, just what have they built in Iraq?

The rules and laws were already in place to ensure the speculators and hedge fund managers didn't abuse the system, the problem is the Republican backed FTC slept on watch and allowed it to happen, but then I suppose your going to blame the last 8yrs on the Democrats....Lol...typical denial syndrome.......where did the last 8 yrs go to? Who was burning up the deficit like there was no tomorrow, AFAIK, Clinton left with a surplus.......hmmmmmm :redcard:r
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Aspman » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:22 pm

Dogbert wrote:But you never ever ever help the economy by raising taxes. Higher taxes, less revenue coming into the gov't.


Ol' Winston Churchill said
"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

More than 65 years ago and he still had it right.
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Dogbert » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:53 pm

Denial my ass... If I'm in denial then why did Bill Clinton agree with Bush, by telling ABC News last year that the blame for the Fannie Mae Meltdown Lies squarely at the feet of Corrupt DEMOCRATS who blocked efforts to regulate and investigate Fannie Mae. Hmmm?

This is sounding more like a hate bush speech PR.... get over it. We weren't the only one's that went over there, I'm not saying we were right for it. Because it should have been done long before now.

As for Clinton's "surplus," it never existed and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

Code: Select all
Fiscal            Year
Year              Ending           National Debt           Deficit
FY1993    09/30/1993    $4.411488 trillion   
FY1994    09/30/1994    $4.692749 trillion    $281.26 billion
FY1995    09/29/1995    $4.973982 trillion    $281.23 billion
FY1996    09/30/1996    $5.224810 trillion    $250.83 billion
FY1997    09/30/1997    $5.413146 trillion    $188.34 billion
FY1998    09/30/1998    $5.526193 trillion    $113.05 billion
FY1999    09/30/1999    $5.656270 trillion    $130.08 billion
FY2000    09/29/2000    $5.674178 trillion    $17.91 billion
FY2001    09/28/2001    $5.807463 trillion    $133.29 billion


Under Clinton the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.

Yes, I will grant you that Bush was fiscally irresponsible but you can't lay the blame on him alone, and make Clinton look like a saint at the same time.
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Panama Red » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:13 am

2 wongs don't make a wight....anyway I'm not out to bash Bush, plenty of other people more qualified then me can and do do that...the facts still remain that for the last 8 yrs greedy SOB's made off with a boatload of money, do you deny that prior to last year most corporations including the banks were recording record profits....where did that money go? Why are the employees the ones to get the shaft when it all goes wrong why don't the shareholders cough up all those profits they made....but oh no, now they want Tax payers money to offset the creditors.....hmmm do you think if I went to my bank and said, darn, due to my unwise investments in pyramid schemes I am unable to pay my bills, would you ever so mind in writing off my loans...

There are crooks and then there are evil bastards.....as for Fannie Mae, that is a black mark on the democrats, but have you been watching the news lately, was AIG down to the Democrats, was this:

An internal war within the financial system is unfolding.

Lehman Bros goes bankrupt, Merrill Lynch is bought up...

Mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are taken over by the government.

Bear Stearns collapses, America's largest insurance company AIG's share collapse from $22.19 on September 9, to less than $4.00 at the close of trading on September 16, a decline of more than 80 percent of its value.

Goldman Sachs together with JP Morgan Chase are negotiating with the Treasury to arrange for a $85 billion secured loan to AIG, which would be financed by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Who picks up the pieces? What lies ahead?

The process of mergers and acquisitions is likely to proceed to new heights leading to an unprecedented centralization of financial power, with Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York playing a dominant role.

The meltdown will be conducive to the demise of numerous banking and financial institutions, which will either be driven out of the financial landscape altogether or acquired by the financial giants.

Bank of America is slated to purchase Merrill Lynch, leading to the formation of the world's largest financial institution, clashing with Citigroup and JP Morgan Chase. It should be noted that while Citigroup and JP Morgan Chase are competing institutions, they are nonetheless entwined through intermarriage between the Rockefeller and Stillman families.

Bank of America in the last two decades has developed into a financial giant through a series of mergers and acquisitions. In 2004, Bank of America acquired FleetBoston Financial, in 2005 it purchases credit card giant MBNA and in 2007 it acquires LaSalle Bank Corporation and Corporate Finance from the Dutch bank ABN AMRO. And on September 14, 2008, Bank of America announced its intention to acquire Merrill Lynch for $50 billion.

What we are dealing with is a clash between a handful of major financial institutions, which have developed through mergers and acquisitions into Worldwide financial giants.

The financial meltdown on Wall Street largely benefits Bank of America and JP Morgan Chase, which is part of the Rockefeller empire, at the expense of Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. Lehman Brothers filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on Bloody Monday, September 15. Lehman's assets are of the order of $639 billion.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10268

Who's going to pay for that, incidentally, Obama did not leave out the Bush tax cuts in his stimulus package, what he did leave out was the corporate welfare tax breaks that the large corporations wanted, the Democrats are squarely for the middle class and will try their best to protect what is essentially the backbone of both our economies, the Republicans would reward incompetence and punish the workers, so my bit about the 5% is off as I meant the super Rich, that is who should be taxed to the hilt, not the working Joes, or the small business types.

Lets face it if Bill Gates has to spend a few more millions in taxes is he going to cry over it, now not getting on his case as he is a philanthropist, but I am using him as an example of the super rich who wouldn't bat an eyelid if they had to pay more taxes, yet middle class people will feel it, also over the last 10 or so years the value of a yearly salary has dropped and fallen behind to where it should be today in regards to spending power.

Myself, if it was possible to avoid a complete meltdown of the Worlds economies, I would say to hell with the bailouts and let them sink, unfortunately they are tied into too many other things to be allowed to fail...this is why Obama's stimulus package has to be allowed to work, for crying out loud he's only been in office a little over a Month...

Too get out of the Great Depression, the Government had to create jobs, and it was the Military industry that helped (that and a WWII), but this time around it's the infrastructure of the States that need the infusion of cash, how many bridges are near collapse across you country (ours as well), they built them over 50yrs ago and probably expected them to last forever or until the next election, in other words they were forgotten about, same with the Water problems in some of your States, or lack thereof, arable land, farmers giving up and moving to the city....for every new job created by Government that creates another tax paying citizen, unfortunately it also becomes big Government, but over time and after we all crawl out from this mess, there will be attrition and downsizing, happens all the time, only this is a huge correction.....was certain to happen at some point, always have to pay the piper.... :wink:
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Re: Grim ....

Postby Dogbert » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:32 am

do two wongs make a wong tong soup? :rolf6:

I'm not saying we shouldn't let Obama's plan work, I hope it does stimulate the economy in a positive manner. But I really hope this doesn't push us to a more socialistic form of government and the economy that goes with it, etc.

Government didn't create Jobs in the Depression, it invested in the industries, who in turn created or added jobs to their rolls. Government, at least the U.S. Government cannot create jobs outside of it's own.

Why should stockholders be forced to reinvest in the companies? They bought into the companies with their initial purchases. They loaned the money to the companies, the companies used the money to do whatever they wanted. All the stockholders asked for is the company to make them money, for as long as they held the interest in their company via their stock.

It all boils down to the fact that small town America is what will save this country, yet again. Small town banks, businesses, contractors, groceries, etc. Why? Because they aren't risking what they don't have, to gain what they don't need. Companies like Wal-Mart, Six Flags, Inc. (when they were known as Premier), even various states, etc., got greedy and expanded to fast by spending and becoming heavily in debt. Wal-mart's sales, like most retail businesses, are in the tank. Six Flags is suffering under a heavy debt load from bad management, and expanding to quickly, under the old board. Now the new board/ceo, etc., have streamlined the company, and are working hard to restructure debt, and are facing the aspect of going bankrupt by the end of the year or at least that's what the analysts say.

I still don't see this Obama plan really working, but we'll see.
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