Debate Topic: Are the Poor lazy?

[Egaladeist]

Most people in the USA are poor because of their choices.

Someone said this and I countered with:

just the opposite…

most people are poor because of circumstances that ‘ are ‘ beyond their control…remember that ‘ poor ‘ does not mean unemployed and lazy…it refers specifically to anyone living below the poverty line including those who are employed and under-employed…

and it refers to anyone of work age…which is usually between 18-65…it also includes those who are on disability…most of which are not fraudulent claims…you have to be a real cynic to believe that most claims are fraudulent considering they would require the doctor to conspire with the applicant…

and we live in a pyramid employment structure that allows only so much room for growth and advancement…not everyone can run the company…manage the company…or even hold a supervisory position…the further up the ladder you go the less room there is…so…

obviously the bulk of people are going to find themselves somewhere on the bottom whether they like it or not…

there will always be more jobs for assembly-line workers and shipping clerks, janitors and waitresses than for warehouse management and restaurant management…

so…there’s all kinds of factors, including job availability, the economy, where you live, etc…that will affect the choices available to you…most of which you have no control over.

[Harbinger]

I don't approve of the way you phrased the question. You set it up to make being poor the most basic and fundemental aspect of the person(s) in question. Someone is impoverished first, then their laziness becomes a factor. A better question would be, "Is there a coorelation between poverty and personal laziness?

The answer to your question is, "not necessarily".

That aside, those who are lazy are likely to be poor. While entry into the world at various socioeconomic factors does play a role in potential success, it ultimately plays a distant supporting role to personal effort, ambition, and native ability.

The only two factors any non-slave has no control over are that they are born, and that they will eventually die. Everything in between is a function of effort. The degree of the effort required is a complex weave of natural ability, ambition, desire, supply, demand, and resources. If there is no demand to one's skill-set, then they either need to change their skills or location to where they are in demand.

If settlers can make it across a continent of wilderness, or people can bicycle around the country for pure leisure, there is no reason why anyone cannot take a $25 Greyhound out of town. If their native ability/intelligence is so low in which they cannot compete in any feild at any location, then they deserve to fail. Information and knowledge are more accessible and affordible now than they have ever been in the history of humanity. There is no justifiable reason not to exploit them.

You fall into the "progressive" logical fallacy that wealth is limited. It is not. It is an abstract concept and is thus infinite. One does not have to work for others to accumulate wealth. Anyone capable of starting their own business is more than welcome to try. Anyone not capable of it has no choice in the matter, but that cannot be helped. If your complaint is that entreprenuership holds too many impediments for those not born of the landed gentry, then you have regulation, wage laws, and taxes to thank for that.

[DaFoxx]

it also includes those who are on disability…most of which are not fraudulent claims…you have to be a real cynic to believe that most claims are fraudulent considering they would require the doctor to conspire with the applicant…

it doesn't require 'complicity' it just require fear, most Dr's are not going to take a kicking when they are 'asked' to sign off on a disability claim, and yes, this is happening, it is not so prevelant, but it is not isolated, UK has some right lazy twats around, and as much as I normaly like / agree with Eg's ramblings, here we will have to part ways for once.

Poor people are nor necessarily lazy [as stated by Harb~] but lazy people are generally poor, the idle rich apart, and it could be argued that they are poor in aspects of their life

I personally, think that if you want to you can do things to help yourself
those that do should be helped
but we now live in an age where the state is seen a having a DUTY to look after all of its citizens, and GIVE them just what they desire.
and that just cannot be sustained

might be better to retitle this thread, and start again.
first off by defining POOR
it used to include things like having no TV
obviously, the goalposts have moved again, so maybe we need to set down some baselines

[DaFoxx]

FECK
that's DEEP for a pissead

[dinowuff]

I'm a lazy as lazy gets
I am not poor


I work smarter not harder

Does this mean poor people are stupid?

[Aspman]

The UK has a very flawed system that traps people in low incomes.

If you have never worked but have a partner and you manage to push out say 2-4 kids the state will provide you with a house for free, provide you with money in the form of income support and child benefit to live in that house comfortably. You will be required to look for a job to receive job seekers allowance but if you are clever you can get teh Doc to sign you off as incapable of working which will open a raft of benefit options. With 4 kids you could receive around £40000 worth of benefits from the state for doing nothing other than breathing.

If you are not a lazy feckless scrounger and you try to get a job and better yourself you will find that by earning you will start to pay tax and simultaniously you will lose benefits at approximately 100% above a certain level. So between £8000-14000 you will have to essentially work just to pay the state.

and no you won't be suffering. The benefits you will receive will be more than enough for you to run a modest car, have cable tv, contract phones and the other trappings of modern life.

If you work you will be taxed on your income twice. Income tax and national insurance. Your employer will be taxed for employing you (NI again). You will pay 17.5% tax on almost all goods.
If you want to buy a home you will be taxed at 1-3% on the value of the home just to buy it as well as VAT on all services relating to the purchase. You will also pay a local tax relating to the value of your home.
If you make a mistake in your tax return even if it is to the benefit of the state you will be fined £1000 with no right of appeal.

If you lose your job you will receive less help than those who have never worked and never given anything to society.
If you serve overseas and return injured you will be put in a general ward (because the military hospitals have been cut) with junkies and illegal immigrants with no right to additional care for serving your country.

Yes we have some very lazy people who have never and will never work. But it's a choice that unfortunately makes sense.

[Morganlefay]

I believe it is mostly choice....and lack of education.

We have access to many programs here in Canada.... people just dont want to help themselves.

Its much easier to stay at home and watch TV... (dont get me started on the issue of crap TV....people living vicariously through the lives of TV personalities instead of engaging in real life)

And then they are begging for money on the street with a smoke hanging out of their mouth, a large dog, new piercings and tattoos. I think they have their priorities wrong. There is a woman that hangs out at the mall ....with a sign ...I got 4 kids and cant work blah blah blah...with a feckin tan....looks like she just got back from Florida...or can afford a tanning bed.

I needed help once....so I was involved in the social welfare system...(which btw retrained me in computer systems )...and I got a job painting my friends store for 8.00 per hour....they deducted from my montly check...and on my visits to the welfare office....splattered with paint...scum bags actually made passes at me. Its a social thing for them.

Took me a year....but I got out of it...using it as the safety net it was meant to be....it wasnt easy by any means.

MLF

[Aspman]

Took me a year....but I got out of it...using it as the safety net it was meant to be....it wasnt easy by any means.

MLF

A safety net is what it's supposed to be. Not a lifestyle choice.

[Morganlefay]

You are so right...it is a lifestyle choice.

I choose not to stay there....sure it would have been easy...

I also think its a vicious circle once you get in there....we have families that have been on it for 3-4 generations....a taught behaviour. That is why I think that education is key...quality early childhood education.

When I started to work childcare cost me 32.00 per day per child....I had 2 (twins). This was in someones home where they were plunked in front of a TV for hours on end....served krap dinner and fruit rollups for lunch.

That lasted oh 2 months as when school started up again...I enrolled them in the local Montessori school for 28.00 per day.

Best thing I ever did....they stayed in Montessori for 9 years. They are now in High School with a 96 and 90 average....with aspirations of post secondary a some of Canadas top universities.


MLF

[Aspman]

Need international translation!

What is a "Montessori school"

What is a 96 average? I assume that's the 'grade point' thing you hear about in US TV shows. Where is that on the scale (high I guess since you seem chuffed)?

[Morganlefay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_method

with 90 plus average in high school....you can get in pretty well any university in Canada ....and they may pay the tuition...

Its all good

MLF

[Morganlefay]

and another thing about Montessori....

http://www.montessori.org/enews/barbara_walters.html

Larry Page and Sergey Brin, founders of the popular Internet search engine Google.com, credited their years as Montessori students as a major factor in behind their success. Having been friends since childhood. When Barbara Walters asked if the fact that their parents were college professors was a factor behind their success, they said no, that it was their going to Montessori school where they learned to be self-directed and self-starters. They said that Montessori allowed them to learn to think for themselves and gave them freedom to pursue their own interests

Here in Canada childcare is a tax deduction....so is the Montessori up to grade 1 (6 years old)...not sure about your laws there...but it is a much better option the our other childcare...IMHO. My kids started at age 3.

Something to consider for the little sprog

MLF

[Aspman]

You do get child care vouchers which are tax deductable i.e part of your wages is converted to vouchers before tax. Saves about 30%

Schooling, should you choose a private school, is not tax deductable.

SWMBO wouldn't ever put sprog in a private school, she teaches in state schools. TBH the schools near us are ok. In Scotland you don't have any choice of school. So the problems you get down south with kids not getting their first choice of school just don't exist.

[Morganlefay]

Well...alot of people enroll them in the Montessori instead of daycare...until school starts...and then they move them to the Public (government) school system. I was fortunate enough to be able to keep my kids there.

Maybe the child care voucher would cover some cost of a Montessori ...before sprog starts school

Something you could consider as an alternative to the "daycare" system...which here in the colonies offer minimal quality early childhood education...or instruction of any sort.

Toddlers are little sponges...and pick up things extremely quick. Somethings will stay for a lifetime.

M

[Aspman]

Hmm. It does seem to be starting over here. But no Montessori nurseries or schools within 300 miles. The nearest would be in Ireland. But that watery stuff gets in the way.

There is a Montessori state school opening as well.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/pr ... in-UK.html

There is a child minder who lives round the corner from us that has been recommended. I think we'll be trying there to start with. We'd rather not put sprog into any sort of day-care but needs must and the mortgage doesn't go down because you have a kid.

If the Conservatives get in (big if this morning) they are planning to open up the schools system (in England probably) to allow parents to start up their own schools if they want to. So for instance you have a desperate drive to open up a Montessori style school in your area. If you can build up enough support in the area the Gov would step in and provided funds for every pupil you can encourage into your system. Effectively you can compete for pupils.