Do you live in a fascist state?

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Do you live in a fascist state?

Postby Aspman » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:27 am

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


---------------------------------------

A lot of this looks like it was written specifically to point the finger at the US.
He does seem legit though. Interview here - http://www.rochester-citynews.com/g...?oid=oid%3A3136
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Postby Egaladeist » Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:49 pm

Hi Asp,

well..only 6 and 9 might apply to Canada :D not too bad eh? :D

Eg ;)
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Postby Aspman » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:25 pm

I recken we've got

2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 12, 13

at the moment, and the beloved leader is going for a 14 whenever he thinks he'll get away with it.
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Postby Kwiep » Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:30 pm

I'd add 1, 4 and 8 to that list for the US.

I don't think the US is a fascist nation and I don't agree all points being characteristic for fascist nations. I do however think the US has plenty of problems and characteristics they say they don't have and even despise.
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Postby Morganlefay » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:39 pm

I dont beleive the US as a whole is fascist

But Bushypoo and his administration sure are ...

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Postby |3lack|ce » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:59 pm

Ok Asp, I left it alone on AO, but I can't here....

My "home from Desert Storm" story:

A beautiful day dawned in June of 1990 as the Aircraft Carrier USS America steamed into New York harbor amidst thousands of other ships to celebrate the ending of Operation Desert Storm. A parade was to take place the next day. I sat on duty in Anchor Windlass, my latest 'sea and anchor' detail assignment, monitoring the windlass motors to make bloody well sure they were working properly and to effect emergency repairs or cross-connect in case anything went wrong. It's gorgeous up there. The floor is tiled and well shined by botswain's mates who have little or nothing better to do with their time while the ship is steaming. There's a TV playing in the space. It's got Good Morning America on piped in through the ship's closed circuit tv system. Joan London is on our very own flight deck interviewing some of the airwing guys. A special day indeed, it's been 6 months since any of us have seen the US coast.

I'd signed up for leave a week prior and it came back approved. Tomorrow before the parade started I was to meet my (then) wife Susan and new daughter and head home to Virginia for 2 glorious weeks of vacation. For today, I needed only to man my post until the ship was securely moored to her pier then head off into Manhattan for liberty.

Time passes. 4 hours later we're moored and on shore power, and everyone's happily departing the ship save for a very fatigued duty section. We're required to wear our dress whites while on liberty in New York. For the life of me I don't know why, but the Captain ordered it, so into my dress whites I go and down the aft gangway onto the pier, with Tom and Patrick who work in electrical tool issue and are buds of mine.

We hit the streets with pride. We've done our job, we're returning war heroes. Amazingly enough the city seems to think so too. Everywhere we go we cannot pay a single cover charge, nor buy ourselves any drinks or food. Our money, it seems, is no good.

So here we go walking through Times Square. For those of you who've never actually been to Times Square, it's the perfect place for an off-duty squid. Lots of cool stuff to see, plus a few seedy places where we seem to like to congregate. Since this is a family site I won't describe that further. Anyway, we're walking down the sidewalk amidst hundreds of people, some very well dressed executive types, some construction types, some just plain folks. This guy rides up to me on his bicycle. He jumps off, drops the bike, spits on me and screams "Facist!" at the top of his lungs. Pat looks at me and says "hurt him." I said "No. He's got the right to say that, that's what we were fighting for."

The crowd around us erupts with cheers. They'd heard what I'd told Pat. The guy on the bicycle is dumbfounded, obviously weighing what I'd said and confused as how to answer. Then a voice comes from behind me from this mountain of a construction guy. "Hell, I wasn't over there fighting for his right to free speech, I'll handle him!" Kawham! The guy's flattened in one strike.

Aspman, I said all that to tell you this -

We may seem like we're militarist, or facist, or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that we're just folks too. We eat, breathe, and crap the same way you do. Last time I read it, the Constitution read "A government by the people and for the people" - brother, that ain't facism. Your right to spit on me and call me or any other American that doesn't retract ours or anyone else's right to come along and take a poke at your nose.

Have a day.
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Postby Kwiep » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:28 pm

Blackice,

I have alot of respect for the military. Even for the nazi soldiers as far as the "fair" batles go. That said, your story doesn't have anything to do with this subject. The guy calling you a fascist is a moron and he got his payback. If he didn't agree with the war, the soldiers weren't the ones he should have cursed at.

Militarism or the military isn't per definition bad. It gets a bit weird though when you are the selfproclaimed richest nation in the world and lower taxes, expand the army, but still have 'as an example' 12% (36 million people) of your population below the poverty line (according to the CIA). Hell you can argue if fascism is "bad", but the fact remains that the US has a lot of problems and characteristics they condemn in other nations. And some of them happen to be common to fascist nations. And to communist nations too for the old vietnam bunch if we have one of those arround here.

With aldue respect.
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Postby Egaladeist » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:35 pm

Hi lce,

I don't think Asp was himself saying that this was related to the US but rather...it seemed to be so directed by the author...

but I liked your story :D

Eg ;)
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Postby Aspman » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:49 pm

Hey |3| I didn't mention the US except at the bottom of the post to say it read like was pointed at the states. IT read so like that that I read around a bit to make sure it was ligitimate.

I might think about calling your leader a fascist (and I haven't, yet ;)) but I don't think that is a title you could level at the population of a country US or UK.

You know by know I have a healthy distain for controlling governments but respect for those serving out the orders of the prick (TB) at the top.

I like the story too :)

(Don't hit me :cry: )
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Postby |3lack|ce » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Not hitting anyone, or planning on it, but it did seem quite pointed at the US.

We've grown militaristic in the past several years because of many things, to wit:

Most of the rest of the world hates us - just ask any North Korean, or radical Muslim out there.

We've been attacked on our own soil for the first time since the Mexican Revolution and that attack was levelled specifically against a non-military target.

And most recently, our militaristic and paranoid attitudes have thwarted (yet another) planned attack against our citizenry. I'm speaking of course about the 'Library Tower' in Los Angeles. Feel free to google the story.

Just because a government takes an extreme interest in protecting its citizens doesn't make it a facism. Granted, some of our methods are quite paranoid indeed (NSA act, Patriot act), leaving a LOT of room for potential abuse by the system but the spirit in which they're written stands. There shall be no further attacks against the US by terrorists.

Does this make us a facism? Hell no.

As a country we don't persecute or kill Muslims on our own soil unless they're proven to be worthy of such treatment. We don't hate a specific race, nor do we hate Muslims for their religion. We don't seek to segregate these people or any other from our regular population, again disregarding certain exceptions. We don't see to expand our territory or power base - I damn sure don't expect or want to see either Afghanistan or Iraq as states number 51 and 52. We're simply being 'world cops' once again - look at Teddy Roosevelt's administration for the first example of when we did this as a nation.

Again, does this make us a facism? I think it proves just the opposite.

One final point and I'll shut up. Does anyone know how many Billions of dollars the United States spends each year to rebuild these nations that are supposed to be our mortal enemies? How much foreign aid has been poured into Iraq and Afghanistan since the invasions? How much money we spent re-installing the Emir of Kuwait (a monarchy)'s SOLID GOLD BATHROOM FIXTURES, after he refused to re-enter his palace until the US Army Corps of Engineers replaced?

Please. You want facism? Go talk to Castro. You wanna point fingers at the US? We've got a nice long finger to point right back at you. In case you're wondering, it's between the index and ring fingers on either hand.
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Postby Kwiep » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:17 am

|3lack|ce,

The US isn't a fascist nation. You just said with your own words though that the US does match a few characteristics of historic fascist nations, namely:
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

It doesn't say anything about a reason for militarisation there, just that it is. And that it is given a disproportionate amount of government funding. You can argue what disporportional is, so you say the US pent alot of money on foreign aid. Sure alot of money, but let's compare it to the the percentages of the GNP:
Norway 0.87
Denmark 0.85
Luxembourg 0.83
Sweden 0.78
Netherlands 0.73
Portugal 0.63
Belgium 0.41
France 0.41
Switzerland 0.41
Ireland 0.39
United Kingdom 0.36
Finland 0.35
Germany 0.28
Canada 0.27
Australia 0.25
Spain 0.24
Austria 0.23
Greece 0.23
New Zealand 0.23
Japan 0.19
United States 0.17
Italy 0.15

Second from the bottom. Mind you that the UN agreed on 0.7% wich only 5 nations seem to have met in 2004. You could say others don't meet it either. Whatever clears your counsious, but is that really an argument?

Militarism doesn't make you fascist, but it does make you militarised wich is the entire point. I think you can agree the US still has more then enough problems inside its own borders. Altough the US has been the first to pick up the role as "world police", do you really think the rest of the world isn't capable of looking after themselves? Did the US give them that chance at all?

Also if Castro points at Hitler saying "he's more a fascist", would that make himself less a fascist?

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

You said yourself, altough started from a protective stance towards US citizens, there is a definite and obsessed fear with national security. Even with good causes for fear like 9-11, this is just a fact.

And I think I can add this one without offending anyone even:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


I think you're open minded enough to admit the US isn't perfect. Critisism like this article, intended or not, should be taken contsructively. Most americans have a habbit of shooting in the defensive whenever one remotly negative thing comes up. It makes it really hard to discuss topics like these. I learned that the hard way on AO. And altough hard to believe, I'm less hardheaded then some of the conservative types on there ;).
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Postby Panama Red » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:59 am

Most of the rest of the world hates us - just ask any North Korean, or radical Muslim out there.


These guys don't make up the "most of the rest of the world hates us", sure there are a few.

I would stand alongside you anytime, if I felt we were being threatened, by an aggressor nation, just like we all did for WWI, WWII and Korea, but this so called war is not a war, it is for all intents and purposes what many used to call the Korean War a "Police Action" until they woke up later in the 80's and rightly started to refer to the Korean conflict as a "war".

A lot of those points can be attributed to just about any country out there, and unfortunately I am a cynic when it comes to things like the US spending Billions to rebuild the countries they destroyed, yeah your spending Billions, and guess who is getting the money, (Cheney Haliburton for one) so any money spent comes right back in to the elite of your country and most other's like the UK depending on who gets what contracts to rebuild. Supposedly only those countries who were in on the ground floor would be able to bid on the work, well I guess it's just the US and the UK, but hey we were there the first time around, and if George Sr had of finished the job the first time, we wouldn't be talking about this, also if Bill Clinton had of told the CIA to with "extreme prejudice" take out Osama when they had the chance, then 9/11 would not have taken place.

You can't ignore some of those points, if you look in the mirror and really question your current administrations attitude to it's own people, you will see where Absolute Power can and will corrupt absolutely, W is forming his own little dictatorship as we speak, the fact they can now eavesdrop without due process from the justice system should set off alarm bells for the ordinary Joes.....

Building walls between Canada and Mexico doesn't sound a little extreme to you....????

I am of the opinion that we should have gone in and blitzed the joint and have been done with it, becoming an occupying force is becoming a huge mistake, I mean it's obvious these people do not want western style Democracy or any style of Democracy where the freedoms of Speech or Expression is entrenched in our daily lives, must be a cartoon of that somewhere.....

Take the points for what they are, an opinion, not everybody hates the US, you guys do have a lot of friends, just try not to overlook them, when your flailing about, because of perceived conoctations.

This is why everyone should be made to study History, those that don't learn from History will repeat the past problems, the US during the dirty 30's were flirting with Fascism, anything was better then the depression, so it is easy to fall into it.

Boy you say there are sleazy places in Times Square, when I was there in 1982, every block was sleazy, but what an experience, it was like being at a show, we just stood around in our kit and drank our 16oz cans of Bud and watched the enertainment, all the pimps and hookers, and every now and then the cops would ask us to move along, and we would go one block and stand at that corner, I loved it, now though I think it's too Micky Mouse, I used to like the Combat Zone (Boston) as well, but that has disappeared also.

To finish, I am proud to say we are neighbours, Canada and the US have a long history together, I have a lot of family there (Flint,Detroit,Tampa Bay), we are more alike then different, (just different leaders at the wrong times). I am sure the burden of being the World Police" can be annoying, but just think if you guys weren't in that role, I think it comes down to some of these countries not being gracious, for your assistance when it was needed, and I am sure it must feel that way sometimes, but deep down rest assured most countries wake up every day, thanking their particular gods that their is a US of A, and besides it's fun to pick on the big guy now and then, keeps you humble..... :wink:
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Postby DaFoxx » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:31 am

just as an observation to that mans diatribe against the USA

I can't think of many, if any, militaristic / nationalistic / any other 'tic' country that has people fighting to get INTO :shock:
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Postby |3lack|ce » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:16 am

Dalek, I respect the fact that you can spout off about another country as you do. I respect it for the simple fact that you don't live here.

There's more than 'a few' in my statement of most. Most I said, and Most it is - primarily because they don't enjoy the quality of life we do, our religious freedoms, our freedom of speech, of the press, and the wonderful fact that the world's economy hinges on Wall Street. Frankly, I believe that we're hated because we're the biggest kid on the block and 'we ain't skeered ta show it neither'.

Korea was indeed a police action. The difference between then and what we're doing now is that the war on terrorism is a declared war. Hate to tell ya, it was a congressional act that made it so, all legit like. Now don't ask me how on earth we're going to conquer a concept - I've addressed that in other political forums in the past, but hey, we're in it for the long haul, for better or worse. I'm not saying it's either right or wrong.

I'd dearly love to see your proof of where these billions are going. Last I'd heard we're spending billions in countries we haven't destroyed as well. I believe you've been watching a bit too much of Faerenheit 911.. Don't go spouting Michael Moore's bullshit at me unless you're prepared to prove it.

George Senior didn't finish the job the first time round because he feared attack by the (tenuous at best) arab alliance he'd built against Saddam. They'd already gone on record saying they'd attack if we fully invaded Baghdad. This time round we did it without their help, and no fear of getting hit from behind by our 'friends'.

I'd like to see the articles about building a wall too - your post is the first I've heard of it. Perhaps you've read some media-sensationalized thing about protecting our borders against illegal immigration?

I tend to agree we should've hit 'em hard then left, but then we'd be having all sorts of human rights activists bitching and crying about how we'd mistreated the 'poor defenseless' Afghanis and Iraqis. Can't please all the people all the time.

I understand the US does have a lot of friends out there. I'm very glad to count Canada, the UK, and Israel amongst our strongest. Why are you posting such anti-American stuff?

In 90 Times Square had cleaned up a lot - but the pimps and pushers were out in force offering freely to us military types as often as they could. I guess it falls in with the preconceived notion that all active duty military have plenty of cash to burn - we got that everywhere.

Glad to say Canada's our neighbor too - great beer from up there, plus some very clean cities and towns. We should use your example for ourselves. I had the pleasure of watching y'all's Snowbirds perform once alongside the USAF Thunderbirds. Impressive indeed.

Proud to trade shots with ya ;) Now where's that proof?

[edit]Cheers Fox![/edit]
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Postby Panama Red » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:10 pm

|3lack|ce, First, I am not Anti-US, (must of missed the part where I mentioned I had family living in the States, and one of them is a Native American, so we could really have a debate about some things you might not like to hear)) I am not sure where in my post you see that, If anything I am Anti-US Administration/Corporation (the two are not the same).

and the wonderful fact that the world's economy hinges on Wall Street.

This is good until China calls in their loans...http://v.webring.com/hub?ring=chinavsusa

Frankly, I believe that we're hated because we're the biggest kid on the block and 'we ain't skeered ta show it neither'.


That's right you guys are the biggest, and sometimes the biggest can be the local bully, espescially where you step on others..

I'd dearly love to see your proof of where these billions are going


http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/co ... contracts/
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/rebuild ... /index.asp
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0930-02.htm

There are a lot more, but I think you'll get the picture....

Korea was a War, it had UN backing.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

I'd like to see the articles about building a wall too - your post is the first I've heard of it. Perhaps you've read some media-sensationalized thing about protecting our borders against illegal immigration?


Was speaking metaphorically... http://www.aims.ca/atlantica.asp?typeID=4&id=459

And just for the record, I find there is a lot of Anti-Canada amongst the forums, as a result of our not backing you guys in Iraq, but it's so easy to forget that we have troops in Afghanistan, or in other hotspots around the world.. http://invadecanada.us/ supposed to be satire???
:wink:

[edit]Foxy, do you know the difference between diatribe and debate, according to you I am bitter and abusive? so much for freedom of speech, I take it, that the intent of this forum is not so...?[edit] :?
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