The Rational God

The place for any Religious and/or Philosophical discussions, treatise, absolutions, ramblings, Aliens, UFO's, space exploration, mystical bullshit, astronomy, astrology, etc...
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Egaladeist
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The Rational God

Post: # 49987Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:35 am

Anyone...looking at the world and the suffering and chaos within,
anyone walking the halls of a children's cancer ward at the hospital,
anyone seeing children starve and beaten to death through neglect and wanton abuse in the third world,
anyone looking at the victims of the street and the destruction it brings to us all,
would come to the natural conclusion that this does not gel with the concept of a loving and compassionate father god image.

However, it does gel with a god of indifference. A god either indifferent to suffering or simply unaware of it.

' but...god says to be free'

I've heard this so many times by so many different people....that god allows suffering because of freedom of choice.

As a parent we are imbued with a natural instinct to love and protect our children even at the cost of our own lives...we are not indifferent to their suffering nor are we predisposed to allow unfettered free choice that would allow harm to befall them.

If we were in a position to guarantee their safety and happiness we would as a matter of instinct and love provide that state of affairs...so they could live out their lives without worry or sadness.

That being said...are we morally superior to this father god? In that suffering offends us and having the power to dissipate it we most assuredly would.

The image of a loving father god in this world does not gel with our natural instincts...our instinct to protect our children from harm and injury.

However, again, it does gel with a god of indifference. A god either indifferent to suffering or simply unaware of it.

Like we are indifferent/unaware of the suffering of an ant. Do ants suffer? Do we care that they suffer? No...we are indifferent to it.

If we assume the religious concept that god is a loving parent and has the power to prevent the suffering of the children, is sympathetic to it, and as a father abhors it, and yet allows it to exist...presumably for the sake of freedom...then god is of necessity immoral...god in effect, having the power to stop or prevent it, allows the suffering to continue.

Acting contrary to every instinct of love and protection we have as parents.

However, again, it does gel with a god of indifference. A god either indifferent to suffering or simply unaware of it.

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that god exists...there are no reservations in that respect...there is a god...whether you choose to believe or accept or not....really does not change anything....does not alter the truth.

The question is not...is there a god? Nor is the question ...do you believe?

The only question is...does god care?

The question is...not...do you believe in god...but rather...does god believe in us?



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Egaladeist
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Post: # 49989Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:26 am

The parenting issue aside...

we are imbued with a natural instinct to survive...we have this instinct as a means to preserve us...

this instinct also causes us to favor our life above all others...to survive...to continue on...

as we...even a lion thinks he is the most important creature on earth...he will kill to eat and to survive as his life is valued above all others...he will not allow the zebra to live at the cost of his own life...

of necessity...we, also, believe our lives to be of the most value...that mankind is superior to all other forms of life...

this is part and parcel of the instinct to survive...

as a consequence we have created an image of god that supports our concept of ourselves...which is based upon that value of ourselves...

if that lion had a religion and a belief his god would prefer his life above all others...this is the instinct of survival creating ego...self-importance...

but...does god view us as we see ourselves? Does god recognize the lion's view of himself ?

Just because we are inclined to superiority...as all creatures are...imbued with self-importance as a result of instinct to survive and continue...and just because man has the ability to exaggerate those ideals/concepts even more so through the creation of personable gods and elaborate belief systems...

does this mean god favors us over any other creature?

The fact is...we may have greatly over-exaggerated our importance...our need to be and to be something is a consequence of our need to survive...to value our survival over all others...

to us we are important....special...unique...as a consequence of ego caused by our view of ourselves as a result of our instinct to survive...

but are we?

Could it be that god is indifferent to our suffering, our plight , because to god we are just another animal...of many animals...of many degrees of ability...

that our view of ourselves is just that...a view that we share...but one that god does not?

Have we greatly over-exaggerated our importance in the larger scheme of things?

Perhaps god is indifferent to us because god does not share the value we place on our existence...perhaps to god we aren't much more than lions.

Though we believe we are.

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Post: # 49991Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:38 am

We have as a society and as individuals created a vision of ourselves and then translated that vision into elaborate belief systems to support that image of ourselves.

We then created god in our own image...to further support that image of ourselves...then perverted it to control and continue that image.

All based in ego...all based further in our instinct to see ourselves as being more important than anything else...which is then based in our need to preserve and survive.

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Post: # 49996Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:15 am

The only viable answer to the question as to why suffering exists and is allowed to continue is not to disbelieve in the existence of god...

but to disbelieve in the notions we have concerning god and god's relation to us.

Religion would have you believe that god is a part of our lives, a caring and overseeing father, a well-wisher and supporter of all that is good in our lives...a personable god that each of us can pray to, talk to, welcome into our individual existence...

unfortunately, life does not support that concept of god.

Life supports the concept of an indifferent god...a god not concerned with individuals...not concerned with a specific species... but concerned with the whole...and indifferent to the day-to-day activities of it's inhabitants.

Perhaps aware...but indifferent.

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Post: # 49998Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:36 am

So...there is a god...let's assume you accept that fact...but then you realize that this god doesn't care about you, your life, or the state of mankind...god has higher priorities than our meager existence...than delving into our personal lives and sorting out our problems...

god is indifferent to you and humankind in general...indifferent in spite of our notion of self-importance...

does it matter? Are we worse off as a result of knowing this?

In fact...we are better off...knowing that god does not care, is indifferent to us, allows us to free ourselves of the fetters of dependence...dependence on god and on religion...to bail us out of our troubles

god is not coming to our rescue...not going to deliver us from our plight...therefore, we must rescue ourselves.

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Post: # 50000Post Egaladeist
Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:59 am

Religion follows the extreme view of a hands-on personable god...an unrealistic god...
atheists follow the extreme view that there is no god at all...an unrealistic opposition to the religious view

extremes are rarely productive in thought or practice...and are counter-productive to the truth...which is usually in-between the extremes..

religion is right in that there is a god...atheists are right in that the god of religion does not exist.

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Post: # 50101Post Harbinger
Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:48 am

All I know is, if I reared children using the same approach as God, they would have been taken away by Child Protective Serivces and thrown me in jail eons ago.

catch
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Post: # 50104Post catch
Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:32 am

Hahahaha nice Har

cheers,

catch
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Egaladeist
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Post: # 50126Post Egaladeist
Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:45 pm

Actually...this:
All I know is, if I reared children using the same approach as God, they would have been taken away by Child Protective Serivces and thrown me in jail eons ago.
should read:

All I know is, if I reared children using the same approach as Religion, they would have been taken away by Child Protective Serivces and thrown me in jail eons ago.

Or, better yet:

All I know is, if I reared children using the same approach as most religions, they would have been taken away by Child Protective Serivces and thrown me in jail eons ago.

catch
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Post: # 50133Post catch
Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:02 pm

Nah, I think god is the better fit.

God basically created a beautiful house, plugged in all the appliances by open water, dumped all the perscriptions pills on the floor, left us with no games or even chores to make productive use of our time and said "Don't know when I'll be back!" before slamming the door shut.

Religion arose out of the desire to have a purpose, hoops to jump through, and the ability to trash the house guilt free for the low low cost of 10%. It is nothing more than a response to abandonment by god.

Think of religion like watching the Brady Bunch every week to compensate for your own broken home and the desire to seek out parent figures anywhere you can find them. All for the low price of watching a few ads to alter your monetary habits.

cheers,

catch
Proud Nubian Princess

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Post: # 50136Post Egaladeist
Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:34 pm

Again though...that's based upon the religious presumption that god is an acting father...a personable god...which my previous posts remarked on...

if god is not a ' acting father figure ' then there can be no parental claims against god.

catch
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Post: # 50144Post catch
Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:54 pm

So deadbeat dad's deserve the same treatment? They are not acting fathers...

I don't see how a fatherly god just dumping us here on Mother Earth and then ducking out to "buy smokes" only to never return is somehow the fault of religion. Religion just says "No, no, it's ok, he didn't really leave you... he is um... watching from afar or... I know, he'll be back some day and then judge you all."

"Yeah, just wait until your father gets home!"

cheers,

catch
Proud Nubian Princess

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Post: # 50147Post Egaladeist
Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:31 pm

Catch..you're still thinking in the mindset of god as a father:

' deadbeat dad '...' don't see how a fatherly god just dumping us here on Mother Earth '

for someone who opposes the religious concepts you seem to still be steeped in them...maybe you are more influenced by religion than you think you are?

try thinking of god more like a distant cousin...do you expect your third cousin to support and take care of you?

Did you even read my posts?

Until you can get the ' Fatherly ' concept out of your mind...I guess you will always blame god for man's mistakes.

The image of god as a ' Father ' and we as ' children ' is a religious notion...if you had really read my posts and not glanced over them then you would see you point is not a point at all.

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Post: # 50216Post cdkj
Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:03 pm

In a country where from childhood all willows are cut back, no man can form an idea of a willow as it could have been, if it could had turned freely into the tree is was intended to be. In a world where all children are polled and trimmed in their freedom from childhood on because they have to learn to live in this society, no man can imagine a man as he was intended to be. Man has no idea of an independent, free man. At one time, man has been like that, free and only dependent on nature

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Post: # 50238Post Harbinger
Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:41 am

If God is not a parent, then God is useless. Acknowledgement yeilds nothing and conceptualization of God only hinders. So If God is indifferent, there is really no proof or point in proving or accepting God's existance.

If God is a parent, then God is a very very poor parent. Unless, God merely isn't half as powerful as led to be. Even if that were the case, it would not be difficult for a being powerful enough to create all that is, to appear and make some changes--particularly considering modern media.

If God did not create the universe, or even Earth and Humanity--then God is nothing more than a hyper-evolved amobea--even more so than we. Even in this case, if God has nothing to offer of practicle use, then it might as well not exist either.

I think the first few verses of the Bible got it right. They basically amount to, "One day God stretched His back after a long lazy eternity of doing nothing, and realized He was bored. So He got the crazy idea of Creation, and bam--the best entertainment of all (pre)Time. Viola.

Meaning of Existance = We all monkeys bred and born to dance. Huzzah! Simple, no?

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