Preserving our Weak

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Preserving our Weak

Post: #83172Post Beekeeper
Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:42 pm

Why do we do it?

As a beekeeper i have watched bees kicking out of the hive weak diseased and deformed offspring leaving them to die and yet as the so called intellegent species we do our utmost to keep them alive.

On case in point, some years ago i had a job for an elderly couple who cared for their disabled son who was no more than a cabbage, 24 stone 40 plus years of age and about 6 ft tall, totally incapable of even feeding himself and confined to bed for his entire life, his dedicated parents catered for his every need.

One day the little old lady (around 5 ft 3 inches) came into my shop for something, we got talking and she burst into tears, apparantly her husband had just died and she couldnt lift her son by herself, from always refusing any offers of help which is typical of the elderly who often seem to be fiercly independant, she was desperate.

The one thing i will always remember was when she siad to me "We never thought we would get old, we always thought we could look after him"

The story had a happy ending, i mentioned to her doctor her predicament, he arranged for the son to be taken into care and a home help for her and for the first time since she married she had a holiday, paid for by social services.

But why was this situation allowed to happen? when i first married, my wife and i agreed that if we had any nutty kids we would want them quietly put to sleep at birth, fortunatly my daughter is perfect in every way, at least i think so.

The question is, should we do what bees do and as a matter of course put to sleep all nutty kids for the word go so they do not become a burden on society in later years.

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Post: #83175Post SirDice
Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:00 pm

It's called humanity, it's what really separates us from the animals and especially insects.
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Post: #83177Post Beekeeper
Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:10 pm

SirDice wrote:It's called humanity, it's what really separates us from the animals and especially insects.
I disagree, i would prefer to call it stupidity.

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Post: #83178Post Egaladeist
Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:12 pm

Well...we all die...it's just a question of when and how...if we look at nature...natural selection or survival of the fittest...we see that nature often, but not always, prefers the strong and healthy over the weak or lame...

however, zebras, for instance, do not kill their weak, the lions do...the lions select the weak as their targets...so in nature zebras do not kill zebras...so should humans kill humans? in very rare instances does a species kill it's own weak or defenseless.

Assuming we were to kill our own weak...where does it stop...how about fat people, skinny, ugly, etc...where do we draw the line once we start the ball rolling?

Where is that line we draw as to who is acceptable and who isn't? What if you have a healthy body but a dense brain...or a great brain but an un-healthy body...what if the person making the line draws it at the least of imperfections...moles, warts, short lifespans, etc...

do you kill Shakespeare when he's a year old or let him live?
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Post: #83179Post Elsparrow
Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:15 pm

I do wonder at times the same thing.

Our ability to keep people alive is possibly detrinmental. Everyone in a coma who will never wake up eats up time, money and resources.

I don't wish to sound harsh, but our abilities as a race could be detrimental to us now?
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Post: #83180Post Egaladeist
Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:26 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again...if we are going to kill anyone it should be those we decide are ' unfit ' to co-habit with us...

if a person deserves to be put in a cell away from the public because he/she is unfit to live with society....because that person is a danger to themselves or others...then...why let them live?

Prisons are a waste of energy...if someone is so mean or vile that they deserve to be put in a cell..that other less extreme measures are not warranted for this individual then kill and be done with it.

but...then the whole way we treat crimes would need a serious re-adjustment....because there are many people in prison who really don't belong there.

prison should be a means of last resort...for only violent criminals...and such should be put to death anyways...so...you end the penal system.

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Post: #83181Post Vorlin
Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:04 pm

Well, the thing about prisons is, IMHO, punishment should be based on the crime. Theft is one thing, murder is a totally different arena. The people that murder others, especially kids, should get the death penalty right away and not "lethal injection" but either the same way they murdered the person/kid(s) or just go back to the electric chair/firing squad/hanging. If we got medieval on people, crimes would go way down. In Saudi Arabia, you get caught stealing over the age of 16, the first time you lose a finger, then a hand, then your head. Pretty straight-forward. Mothers who murder their kids need to be dropped into general population of a bunch of violent psychos and/or have an involuntary hysterectomy. Same with rapists (men or women since they can too, it's just not taken seriously in court)...drop them into general population of the opposite sex and just let what happens happens. In the US, our prison system is a joke and looking at the happenings over the past 15 years and watching it degrade just sickens me. What sickens me more is how it's the taxpayers who have to pay for it.

For the OP, I agree to an extent. Someone born with a deformity should be allowed to give life their all as long as they're not mentally gone. Some of the smartest people I know were wheel-chair bound but they definitely were contributing to society in any way they could. If one can't or won't contribute to society, their life should be removed. IMHO, of course.
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Post: #83184Post Panama Red
Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:16 pm

In today's pursuit of the "Eternal Fountain of Youth" technology is striving to keep us alive as long as our insurance is capable of paying the bills.

I never said I believe in the almighty, and that I am agnostic, that being said if it's your time to die then so be it, your time on this planet is up, no hooking up to countless artificial life preserving machines, all this does is delay the inevitable, I also believe in a "living will", and they should be followed.

As to putting someone to death, who is incapable of making that decision on their own is presumptuous, regardless of their condition.

The Laws are in place to protect those that cannot defend themselves against someone else making a decision for them.

I agree that for a lot of the elderly they are either too stubborn (my old man being born in Hampshire in 33 was definitely stubborn about Hospitals and Doctors, may be alive to day if he wasn't) or too proud and that is a problem, however most of these elderlies have relatives and these people should check in on them once in awhile. :wink:
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Post: #83185Post SirDice
Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:08 pm

I said it was called humanity. But when is it more humane to let someone die rather then live? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, who draws it?
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Post: #83216Post DaFoxx
Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:52 am

I'll draw it
but I also would kill a lot more than the nasty people in jails ...............

life is cheap
and it is calculated to the last drop
so let the machines choose
maybe a lotto style selection

or just let me and my kind have a free go for a month or two

I'd guarantee the roads would be safer to walk on, AND they would be a LOT quieter too :P :)
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Re: Preserving our Weak

Post: #83222Post alleyCat
Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:41 am

Beekeeper wrote:On case in point, some years ago i had a job for an elderly couple who cared for their disabled son who was no more than a cabbage...
The problem is I'm sure that elderly couple loved their child to bits and would never want their child to die, even if they are a vegetable.

I don't think any amount of economic rationalisation will help someone 'kill' their child.

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Post: #83226Post Egaladeist
Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:54 am

In our society...we cannot rationalize death, or wanting to die, or justified killing...
because in our society death is something we are taught to avoid at all costs...
death is a sin...an evil outcome...a horrible frightening thing...

when...in actuality...death is the natural outcome of life...from life comes death and from death comes life...

we are all, from the very moment we are conceived, sentenced to death...

and it can come at any time, under a multitude of circumstances...

our mentality toward death is wrong...and until you change that...society will continue to treat death as if it were some terrible horrible evil thing we need to avoid...

at all costs. ;)

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Post: #83227Post Vorlin
Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:41 am

Death isn't something that is a horrible event in my opinion...it's merely something part of life. You can't have life without death nor good without evil. Some aren't able to make it out alive in circumstances like the wreck I was in where I was on the tail-end and got to see two others go out in body-bags yet I walked away. I believe that's God's way of saying "It's not your time".

People spend fortunes trying to stay alive...with pills, medications, doctor visits, etc. My grandmother, when she found out that she had cancer in remission, said "I'm ready to go and I'm not going through full-blown chemo". By the time I was able to visit her, a month before she passed away, she looked like she was 8 months pregnant with the tumor in her stomach. Mentalities change when you decide you're ready and willing to go.
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Post: #83229Post alleyCat
Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:33 am

Egaladeist wrote:In our society...we cannot rationalize death, or wanting to die, or justified killing...
because in our society death is something we are taught to avoid at all costs...
death is a sin...an evil outcome...a horrible frightening thing...

when...in actuality...death is the natural outcome of life...from life comes death and from death comes life...

we are all, from the very moment we are conceived, sentenced to death...

and it can come at any time, under a multitude of circumstances...

our mentality toward death is wrong...and until you change that...society will continue to treat death as if it were some terrible horrible evil thing we need to avoid...

at all costs. ;)
I'm not sure you are right... Death isn't 'wrong' but it does mean the end of the life... thats pretty final you know? Whether you believe you are going on to some afterlife or dust to dust, its still absolute --> you can't choose to come back.

THAT is what I think people want to avoid...

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Post: #83233Post SirDice
Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:58 am

I agree to some extent with Vorlin, there is no death without life and no life without death. Same for light and dark or good and evil. You need to know darkness to be able to tell if it's light, you have to know evil to know when something is good. Whether or not some god has anything to do with it is debatable and not something I believe in.
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