Is it morally just?

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|3lack|ce
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Is it morally just?

Post: # 90627Post |3lack|ce
Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:25 pm

It's been awhile since I started anything interesting in La Cueva, so here's a bit of 'kick around' for us - consider it a 'soul search' eh?

IS it morally just for one partner to dominate another in a marriage?
Consider: Lions, Meerkats, Wolves, and other creatures of the wild, as well as human cultures such as the Arabs, and even certain Christian sects.

"Honor thy wife, Obey thy husband."

My take:
At the outset of my relationship with Trish, it was discussed in-depth as to who would wear the pants in the family under which situations. We both agreed that exactly ONE of us should have the final 'NO' on any matter, regardless of that matter, and regardless of the opinion of the other, but would bear full responsibility or credit for that decision for all time.

I bear that responsibility. It works like this:
Trish says yes, I say yes, no problem, it's yes.
Trish says yes, I say nothing, no problem, it's yes.
Trish says no, I say no, no problem, it's no.
Trish says yes, I say no, it's NO. No further discussion on it unless it turns out to be a bad decision, in which case a 'post-game' analysis of it is in order and I bear the responsibility for the mistake.
Trish says no, I say yes, it's YES. Same situation as above.
Understand that she gets input first, and on every major decision before I decide - and once I've decided that's not the end of things yet, there's further discussion if we're in disagreement until I say 'final no' or 'final yes'.

Does it work for us? Has for 7 years now. How's my 'batting average'? Right now a little below average - a string of bad 'yes's' of late kinda did me in, but we're getting better (that video store idea bit us in the butt hard. I gotta get a real job like...now... and not a 'pick and choose' one, an 'any port in a storm' one.) We weather out the bad stuff though and on the occasion when I hit a home run we both reap the rewards of it and I don't gloat (well, not much and never publicly).

Is this morally just, or should we be doing things the 'equal' way and if so, what do we do when we absolutely cannot agree on something? Someone's gotta give or nothing gets done.


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Post: # 90672Post outerlimit
Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:13 pm

I think that as long as both are in agreement its fine.

Looks like you two did a great job in discussing it before hand, and you both seem happy with it.
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Post: # 90674Post Maverick
Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:29 pm

Outer hits it on the head - if both of you are comfortable with that decision that you bear final decision and responsibility, then it's fine. As far as morals are concerned, I don't think you'll find a definitive answer. On one hand, you have old schoolers who believe that the man should have the final say, makes the decisions, etc. On the other, you have new schoolers who believe in equal parts, equal input, etc...

Myself? I believe couples make their decisions as one - no one person has final say..
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Post: # 90677Post rapier57
Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:43 pm

Yeah, Connie and I make decisions as one. She says what she wants to do or have done. My role is to say, "Yes, Dear."

;)

I do put in my tuppence when things are very important and I want us to not go down the wrong path.

I'm easy ... but, I ain't cheap.
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Post: # 90679Post Panama Red
Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:57 pm

rapier57 wrote:Yeah, Connie and I make decisions as one. She says what she wants to do or have done. My role is to say, "Yes, Dear."

;)

I do put in my tuppence when things are very important and I want us to not go down the wrong path.

I'm easy ... but, I ain't cheap.
Yep...I have nodding down to an art...Lol

Early on, during our relationship, and while I was working very hard down in the caribbean on occasion, she would be the Father/Wife/Bill Payer/Driveway Shoveler/Parent-Teacher suck it up and listen parent.

So when I would come home, it was always "yes dear", sure you want that, okay dear...can we afford it maybe not, but what the heck, I sail again in 2 Months.

Bottom line for our relationship (going on 26yrs) during the times we both made sacrifices for the kids, everything we do now is mutual... 8)
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Post: # 90682Post |3lack|ce
Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:16 pm

Don't tell her this, but usually I nod and go along too - unless it's really important or really risky - then we discuss until it's a dead horse issue. Last time I used 'final decision' was on moving ahead on the vid store even after the first contractors crapped out on us and skipped town with our money. Second contractor did the work, but very shoddily, and it put us way way in the hole, too far to make a good go at it. We ran it for 6 months to see, then wadded the whole thing up - we were spending too much money on building upkeep and repairs (for which we could never be reimbursed) and not enough where we should've - increasing inventory, hiring employees. A lulu of a booboo on my part, but I take full blame. She wanted to call it quits on the project after the first setback.

I hate having to 'cut my losses' - ever - but I've learned that riding a pony into the ground is sometimes much worse.
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Post: # 90683Post rapier57
Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:16 pm

I think the iceman was trying to get a discussion going on the moral justification for male domination or female domination of a relationship, and here we go diverting it into a relationship style discussion.

Personally, I have little or no respect for social or religious dogma that puts one spouse under the thumb of another. Iceman has a good thing going and it works for him and Trish. And, I bet Trish gets her way more than Ice admits. ;)

Odd, this. My best friend and I were talking about something like this last weekend. I was saying something about official English and he said his main objection is women in burkhas walking the streets in the US. He thinks they should be required to not wear them here. He has his issues with those kinds of social and religious rules.

I get very irritated with men who think wives should stay home, have kids, make dinner and keep quiet. Maybe I lived around strong women most of my life and I know better than to cross them?
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Post: # 90684Post |3lack|ce
Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:24 pm

Ah! here we go - Rapier, you're spot on:

I've seen relationships where the woman is boss. I've seen my relationship (and my dad's for that matter) where the man does.

Yes, in my relationship Mrs|ce gets her way 98% of the time. Just because I hold final say doesn't mean I use it a lot - in fact, I use it rarely.

BUT - in the relationship I observed where the woman was boss - ouch (I was dating the eldest daughter at the time - mom ruled the roost, dad was beta male to the core and a wimp.) - She had FULL say in all things all the time, he was a 2nd class citizen, having not only to handle all chores outside the home but all of them inside as well, except cooking which she preferred to do herself. He served the meals, waiting by her side until after she, the family, and any guests had finished before he would eat. She decided where the money went, she handled everything - right up until she went online and found a guy in Detroit she became infatuated with, abandoned her home, family and hubby to move in with him. I pity the poor sot she shacked in with - as well as the hubby she left behind.

Thankfully the daughters didn't really care for mom's habits in that arena - at least the one I dated didn't.

So where's the line? What's morally right or wrong?

We agree that with awesome power comes awesome responsibility, and if used wisely this power works well for a relationship.

A question for our poster with 20+ years of equals:

How is it handled when you both can't agree on something no matter the amount of discussion? Do you just let the issue at hand rot, doing nothing save agreeing to disagree?
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Post: # 90685Post Egaladeist
Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:31 pm

Guess being a single Dad sums me up pretty good :D Had the last one arrested and set to jail for the night about 15 times...twice she had to be restrained with both cuffs and leg cuffs and carried out :D

Boy would she be pissed the next day :D

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Post: # 90687Post Panama Red
Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:39 pm

|3lack|ce wrote:
A question for our poster with 20+ years of equals:

How is it handled when you both can't agree on something no matter the amount of discussion? Do you just let the issue at hand rot, doing nothing save agreeing to disagree?
The fine art of "compromise", the final decision will be made on how it affects the unit overall.

We have beggared ourselves over the years to ensure our kids were looked after, so if the other half wanted something that was maybe too expensive we would talk about it, I may say no and she may say yes, and after a heated discussion sometimes we can both relent and compromise by setting a goal.

I am not of the male is dominant theory or the female, it's a game of give and take, I watched my old man try that route, he was brought up in a very "Victorian household" (I have the scars...Lol) and this failed with Mom on a lot of occasions.

I do know the various definitions, especially while in the Navy, such as "pussy whipped" etc...but that was mostly peer pressure.

I think a successful relationship is one built up over time via cooperation...
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Post: # 90690Post rapier57
Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:05 pm

Morally, iceman, it is wrong if there isn't mutual respect. Without the respect, the relationship is a sick one and the roles are not balanced or based on reasonable expectations. Thus not moral.

In a relationship with mutual respect, roles are chosen based on recognized strengths and weaknesses and common goals. That is morally right. Social, political and religious pressures aside.

Connie will let me know, in no uncertain terms, when I've stepped beyond the bounds. I have a tendency to be an alpha male when angered or challenged, and she brings me back into balance. (Pay no attention to that ring in my nose.)

But, that only works because of the mutual respect.
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Post: # 90692Post Opus
Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Yes/No scenerios will always have a loser, even if you discuss it to no end and just give up discussing it, the "No" side wins
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Post: # 90703Post rapier57
Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:50 am

Oh, Opus, you haven't discovered yet how to make all situations in the relationship end with both sides winners. There is a secret to it.

;)
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Jayne: You're coming through good and loud.
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Post: # 90704Post |3lack|ce
Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:56 am

Ah! Rapier, you've touched on it - Make her always think she's getting 'her way' and that it was 'her idea' to begin with.
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Post: # 90706Post Panama Red
Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:55 am

|3lack|ce wrote:Ah! Rapier, you've touched on it - Make her always think she's getting 'her way' and that it was 'her idea' to begin with.
Or this is what she has led you to believe, face it, have you ever truly won an argument with the opposite sex, and be honest, Dear do I look big? hmmm what to answer? or your Mom is always wrong and she hates me, or the guilt trips...it's a gruesome minefield.....you may think your winning, but if there is one indelible truth about women, it's they have a memory like an elephant, they will never ever forget.....you on the other hand will always forget and that's where they trip us up..... :evil: 8)
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