Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

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Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Egaladeist » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:55 am

In light of the recent events in Gaza...

Positive:

Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement. In January 2006, the group won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) general legislative elections...

Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services...Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption


Negative:

Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Its leaders have called suicide attacks the "F-16" of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes "peace talks will do no good," Rantisi said in April 2004. "We do not believe we can live with the enemy."


Hamas - Council on Foreign Relations
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Panama Red » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:17 pm

Terrorists...


Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools(to teach hatred towards Israel), orphanages (future suicide bombers), mosques(Duh), healthcare clinics(mostly red cross or red crescent here), soup kitchens(for the families of suicide bombers), and sports leagues(who can run the fastest, or who can dodge bullets). "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities,"(in a pigs ear).


Love em or hate em, the Jews are not going to be going anywhere anytime soon, so the sooner the Arabs get this through their thick heads, the better off everyone will be...as it is now it's all about power and corruption, eventually the religious aspect will disappear just as it did with the IRA and the thugs will be more organised with typical crime... :breakfast:
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Morganlefay » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:25 pm

Terrorists

Hamas breeds hatred and is intolerant of anything that falls outside thier narrow beliefs.

Its time for them to suck it up and move on to truly helping their people.

Its like kicking a sleeping dog...what do they expect :roll:

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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby SirDice » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:07 pm

A bit of both...

< wonders what he would do if some group of people took away (part of) his country and claim it for their own.

Hell.. I'd probably start throwing grenades too.. (I'm not dumb enough to strap them on me and blow myself up in the process)
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Panama Red » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:57 pm

SirDice wrote:A bit of both...

< wonders what he would do if some group of people took away (part of) his country and claim it for their own.

Hell.. I'd probably start throwing grenades too.. (I'm not dumb enough to strap them on me and blow myself up in the process)


Yeah but 2 wongs don't make a wight..right... :mrgreen: The Palestinians got a bad deal, but it's not like Jordan and Egypt and Syria, threw open their doors and said, to heck with the Israeli's come live with us.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby SirDice » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:26 pm

Panama Red wrote:Yeah but 2 wongs don't make a wight..right... :mrgreen:

In this case I'm not saying one is right and the other isn't :mrgreen:

But I do wonder at times how far I would go to protect the things I believe in..
That sort of puts things into perspective..
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Panama Red » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:44 pm

SirDice wrote:
Panama Red wrote:Yeah but 2 wongs don't make a wight..right... :mrgreen:

In this case I'm not saying one is right and the other isn't :mrgreen:

But I do wonder at times how far I would go to protect the things I believe in..
That sort of puts things into perspective..



The kinds of things I believe in...... :breakfast: Well first and foremost, would be to protect my "family", real estate isn't worth the aggro and isn't that what most wars are about, coveting someone elses territory, lets face it, if we were to force the Israeli's to give up Israel, how can we then look at the aborigines and North American Indians and say well what are you looking at...we are not leaving, it's been settled, you were here, we came and we moved in...squatters rights, so for us to look at Israel and say you know what, what you did was not right and you have to give all the lands back...yer right, like that will happen, like the English will give up their land holdings in parts of the UK where they stole them from the original owners (Irish/Scottish/Welsh)....or Dutch colonials in parts of Africa and Asia, or Portugeuse and Spanish settlers.....what happened, is history and the Palestinians will need to come to grips with the harsh reality of the fact that the Israeli's are there to stay.

I also find it hilarious how the Palestinians, will call for the Israeli's heads, yet when they go to work for one it's a different story, a lot of the Palestinians work in Israel and their existence depends on good relations with the Host nation.....it's all about economics and politics, the Hamas are investing in their future should a Palestinian state be created, in other words they want to be the one's in power when it happens, and as long as they can whip up a frenzy once in awhile against the Israeli's, they can hoodwink the locals into thinking all of their troubles are caused by the Jews.....(forgetting simple facts like how they (the Hamas) broke the truce in the first place, sooooo convenient) :wink:
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Egaladeist » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:32 am

Well...I understand and sympathize with Israel but from a historical perspective I don't...the Jews were a displaced society, homeless, and it was Judeo-Christian sympathizers who supported the creation of the State of Israel...

on one hand I see the need for a Jewish homeland...but not at the cost of displacing another society in the process..which in effect that was what was done...

in 1922 when the Brits did their first census the population of Palestine the number of Jews was 11%..and that was after 30 years of planned Jewish emigration into the area...by 1945 it was 31%...the Zionist movement for all intent and purposes stole the land right from under the Palestinians...

so even though I can sympathize with the Jews I can also sympathize how the Palestinians must feel having their Country taken away from them.

http://www.fflch.usp.br/dh/ceveh/public ... estina.htm

As Sir Dice said...what would we do?

As for Hamas and their attacks...the Hamas are using old 1960's Russian grad rockets, home-made rockets, and mortars...

Both of these weapons are types of rockets frequently used by terrorist groups to attack Israel. They are typically referred to as artillery rockets and are designed for barrage attacks over a distance of a few miles or tens of miles. Most of these rockets are not that much different from large model rockets sold in stores in the west except they are packed with explosives. The weapons are fired randomly into Israeli areas and typically do little damage. Their value lies more in spreading fear and chaos among civilians rather than attacking specific buildings or military targets.


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/we ... 0279.shtml

their rockets have no guidance systems...which means they have virtually no control over them and no control whatsoever after launch so they couldn't be targeting civilians...they have no idea where these rockets are going...and they are firing them from make-shift launchers that look like ladders nailed to the ground...even the Jewish government admits that the rockets they are using are so old, defective, or built by amateurs that 20% of them don't even make it out of Gaza or fly into the ocean.

Note: All of these statistics relate to identified hits in Israeli territory. The total number of rockets launched is about 20% more and includes failed launchings as well as rockets that fell short (inside the Gaza Strip) or in the sea.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... g+2007.htm

the Hamas have to know that there is no way they can compete with the modern military might of Israel...so I can only assume it's simply an act of defiance on their part.
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby dinowuff » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:20 pm

Too tell everyone here the truth, I really don't get it.

I do understand the history. I do understand that Israel was created by force! I get that whenever the U.S. or European commands need something done in that region the Palestinians are usually the ones recruited - (who do you think taught the rag heads how to blow themselves up in the first place?)

But why anyone is even reporting that Israel is attacking those idiots is beyond me.

It's like dude, you've been lobbing missiles into the bullies back yard for years. Now he's pissed. WTF?

I have been to Israel, Gaza into Palestine, Jordan and Egypt. The reason Hamas exists it that "Palestine" or what's left of it, is "THE HOOD" it's the ghetto of the Arab world. Israelis don't want them, Syrians don't want them, Jordians don't want them and there home land SUCKS!

If you live in the gutter with no way out... Some dude saying that he'll give your family $50 if you kill some infidels for which you'll get virgin P***Y and eternal life... Yea I'm in.
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Egaladeist » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:46 pm

Israel has no right to occupy the area...they for all intents and purposes stole the land...they didn't win it in the normal way through conquest...world governments made the arbitrary decision to displace one people to give a home to another people...

but...I understand what you're saying...

there's no way Hamas or the Palestinians from places other than the Gaza could win this war of attrition that amounts to fighting tanks with fireworks...so why not just give up and accept the fact ...seems like the logical thing to do...

but, the Middle-East has never been logical...

obviously, Israel is not going anywhere...regardless of the method they got there, the Jews are not going to pack their bags and leave...

so why fight?

The only thing I can think of is defiance...

if we were occupied and displaced what would we do...how long would we be willing to fight...would we fight tanks with bows and arrows...honestly, if it were you Dino, I can't see you giving up even if it looks hopeless...I see you hiding in the hills planting homemade bettys and sinkholes to stop tanks, in an abandoned garage making Molotov cocktails to fling at missile launchers...

it may not be realistic...it may be illogical...but those situations rarely are. ;)
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Re: Hamas: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Postby Panama Red » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:31 pm

Not letting Israel off the hook as they are not altogether blameless, but then if you had to live there and be surrounded by avowed enemies who want nothing more then your utter destruction, then I say go for it, unleash them and let them sort the Middle East out...end ex...


Arab and Iranian dictators oppress their subjects, sponsor half of the world’s major terror groups and imperil Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. 360 million people in Arab states and Iran are entitled to the same freedom and prosperity enjoyed by Europeans, Americans and Israelis.

The Middle East includes 7 out of 19 of the most repressive regimes in the world and their weapons of mass destruction. It is also the hotbed of Jihad (Holy War), an ideology of world domination. The scourge of international terrorism now reaches far beyond the United States and Israel. Half of the world’s major terror groups are Arab and Iranian. 5 out of the world's 7 state-sponsors of terrorism are Arab and Iranian.

In Arab and Iranian dictators' propaganda there is almost no problem that is not caused by the existence of Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy. Most of the Arab and Muslim states do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

The freest Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East live in Israel. The Israeli government is the only one in the Middle East that is elected by free citizens -- including Arabs and Muslims.

Israel is a free, Western country, which recognizes the individual rights of its citizens (such as their right to liberty and freedom of speech). It uses military force only in self-defense. The enemies of Israel, by contrast, are state sponsored terrorist organizations and dictatorships. They do not recognize the individual rights of their own subjects, much less those of the citizens of Israel. They initiate force indiscriminately in order to retain and expand their power.

Israel's achievements are vast and have no parallel in any other country of comparable size or age. They have been reached against an unremitting threat of violence, war, terror and delegitimation that might have defeated any lesser people. In almost every sphere – economic development, technology, integration of immigrants and the maintenance of democracy – Israel should today be internationally heralded as a model for others to emulate.

Above all, Israel has pursued peace. In a mere 10 years it made a cognitive leap for which it would be hard to find a precedent. The "peace process" whose main watchword is "territories for peace", involves a paradox whereby a minuscule democracy is being forced to provide its totalitarian enemies - scores of times its size - the only thing it lacks: territory. In exchange, the surrounding tyrannies are being asked to provide the one and only thing that they lack: peace. In 1990 Arafat's PLO was a proscribed terrorist organization. By 2000 the Israeli prime minister had offered a Palestinian state in the whole of Gaza and 97 per cent of the West Bank, with east Jerusalem as its capital. Students of international politics hail the European Union as a triumph of peace over war. How many are aware that the attitudinal changes that took France and Germany centuries, were achieved in Israel in a single decade?

The case for Israel should be apparent even to thoroughgoing supporters of the Palestinians. Who else has offered them a genuine future? Egypt? Jordan? Syria? Lebanon? The Gulf States? It takes only a cursory glance at the history of the Middle East to realize that for the most part, neighboring dictatorships have ruthlessly exploited the Palestinians for their own ends with callous indifference to the consequences. Israel, alone in the Middle East, has attempted to construct, with and for the Palestinians, a viable and peaceful future.

Israel's strategy of winning Palestinian hearts and minds failed because Israeli carrots could never overcome the intimidation applied by Palestinian terrorist regime's sticks.

Fundamentally, Israel is the target of these terrorist organizations and despotic regimes precisely because of its virtues:

Oasis of freedom in a desert of Arab and Iranian tyranny
Oasis of independent judiciary in a desert of Arab and Iranian arbitrariness
Oasis of women rights in a desert of Arab and Iranian women discrimination


http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html
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