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Sorry Red but I disagree...I don't think most people who are in politics, in any manner, are necessarily patriotic...most do it for other reasons like prestige, power, social standing, ego, etc...
I would estimate that very few politicians are in it because of idealistic reasons.
I'm with Eg, I don't think that being a politician automatically means you are patriotic.
And you know what, it doesn't matter if you are silently reflecting or whatever... You should at least put your hand over your heart. I don't have a problem with him not singing, but not placing his hand over his heart is disrespectful.
I don't care if its just motions, it is what we are taught as kids in elementary school. It is a respect thing, and yes I am sure that there are thousands and thousands of people who just do the motions.
But being a politician, a congressman, a presidential candidate, now the President he should go through the motions for others to see.
14:35 < Maverick> I'm a gaywad
His wife was on the news while he was running for President saying that she can honestly say she is proud of her country and that she never was before... WTF?!
14:35 < Maverick> I'm a gaywad
You missed my point, which is "it's not the person in the suit it's the office" that commands respect, you may not like the person in the suit, but the office is sacrosant and as such is seen to be the epitome of Patriotism...otherwise why bother having a CIC or President or Prime Minister, they are required to swear an Oath of allegience. so de facto..the office is what is important...the fact that he chooses to not sing or hold his hand to his heart is immaterial, the fact that he is the "President" is enough.
Placing a hand over my heart makes me more patriotic then the next person, what's next shall we stamp certain individuals with numbers on their foreheads because they didn't...give me a break, it in no way makes a person that more patriotic or it's a sign of disrespect, why do people have to "show" another person that they are patriotic by placing their hand over their heart?...besides what if I don't have any limbs,(arms) are you going to stone me for not at least putting my foot over my heart..geez maybe I'm a War Veteran and I don't have hands and they are playing the National Anthem, are you going to go over to that person and admonish them for not making an attempt or are you going to observe that that person is a veteran and therefore is assumed to be patriotic? (or the Commander in Chief of the Armed Services)Half the guys who went to Vietnam probably started out patriotic, but I would bet some of them didn't feel the same way when they returned to the adoring public...
I actually had no problem with him until his recent stands and his explanations for them. Even though I agree with most of your post...
i don't think it is immaterial..it may be from a Canadian perspective, Trudeau did a dance behind the Queen...we don't stand too much on ceremony...but I was speaking from an American perspective.
And from the Americans I know personally...and from living in America for awhile...I don't think most Americans would find this behavior as immaterial.
From that perspective I see it as disrespect ...American culture is very much ceremonial...a hand over the heart symbolizes love of Country.
Reading some other posts I believe Obama is actually the only one doing it right, as it is being said that the only time you place your hand over your heart is during the Pledge of Allegiance, but during the National Anthem you stand at attention and face the flag, most military types will understand that, the hand part during the singing of the national anthem comes from the days when men would remove their hats and place it on their chests.
But hey if you think it's disrespectful then bob's your uncle...I couldn't care less, he's your president, and I just think it's petty to go after him when the rest of the country is going down the terlot...as for Canadian Ministers, none of them really have my respect period, well maybe Stanfield is the only one, and maybe Pearson, but coming from a military family and watching the politicians thanks to you the voters, totally disrespect the men and women in uniform over the last 40yrs, nothing ever surprises me anymore..I respect my country enough to have fought for it if called..
Just my 0.02...
the fact people feel the need to show patriotism to me is actually a sign that they aren't truly patriotic and just want another damn gold star and the admiration of other people.
I support my country, but god knows I don't feel the need to shout it off the damn rooftops.
Mountain out a mole hill I think is what Eg has achieved here. . . . in my honest opinion.
Perhaps...but then sometimes it's not the act as much as the principle...like holding out your hand to shake someone else's and they don't respond in kind...it's not a big deal...it's not a world stopper...but it is disrespectful...it is offensive.
And that's what I'm saying...
for a President to do something like this is like not shaking someone's hand...he is, in effect, showing disrespect.
We all have certain rituals that we do...that in themselves are not a big deal...like shaking hands. holding the door open for someone...etc...and it is rude, disrespectful, and offensive to cross your arms in protest or allow that door to slam in the person's face.
Honestly Els...if we ever met and you held out your hand and I didn't...you would not be offended? Sure you would. In that respect it can be a big deal.
I'm not going to hold someone without any limbs to anything for not placing their hand on their heart.
I didn't 'give a shit if people in my class didn't do it for the pledge every morning in HS
HOWEVER, someone who is in his position and power damn well better.
Like I said, in the US the pledge is something you learn starting in elementary school along with placing your hand over your heart.
Yes, he is the commander in chief, but I don't think that it automatically makes him patriotic.
TBH, I think he has his own agenda to push, which isn't patriotic or inline with our country. I think too many people overlooked what he stands for, and voted for him because hes young, black, and all about change. The only listened to what the media had to say and took that to heart.
Yes, there is a lot of other crap going on with our country, and AFAIK noone is tearing him down for it... This went around back during the election, along with all his other crap with his black power church.
He is our President now, and I will show about as much support as all the Bush-haters expressed during Bush's administration. I just hope all those that voted for him will still admit it a few years from now.
Els, I don't know what the fuck you are talking about... wanting to be patriotic has nothing to do with whatever the hell you are going on about.
14:35 < Maverick> I'm a gaywad
That photo was taken during the Iowa campaign last year and a lot of bogus claims were made about it. Most is just BS. The photo is evidently authentic (Urban Legends at about.com), it looks photoshopped, to me. But the statements it has been shipped around with are bunk.
Don't give it so much credence. C'mon, folks, how many of you would stand up and sing the National Anthem? That is a tough song to sing on the best of days. I leave it to the professionals.
Jayne: Testing. Testing. Captain, can you hear me?
Mal: I'm standing right here.
Jayne: You're coming through good and loud.
Mal: 'Cause I'm standing right here.
I've read the same garbage being spread around, which is why I haven't quoted any of it...but the picture is, as you said, authentic..and a picture is worth a thousand words.
I was pointing out the difference in wanting to be patriotic (which I agree with, you should love your country) and the view some people have that they must be seen hand on heart during a national anthem, or having big ass flags in their house or any other extrovert way of showing to everyone they are patriotic. You can be more patriotic by just working damn hard and paying your taxes than the whole hand on heart.
Hell, half our sports teams can't sing the English national anthem anyway, and I don't get pissed off at them for it. Cos nor can I.
And Eg, if you refused to shake my hand, it wouldn't actually bother me. My opinion as to whether you had etiquette and manners would be changed though. But why should it bother me? It's one little thing in life.
All I am saying is, the guys standing to attention, and facing the flag, which is what most right minded people would do.
It might be a generation thing though, where us younger lot are a bit more easy going when it comes to these things though?
I don't agree with all Obama's policies, but I'm happier with him there than Dubya.
I'd rather have Ross Perot ( Mr. McGoo ) than either of them.
I'm not upset with someone not singing either
I'm just saying that there is a thing as showing respect and letting others know that you are doing it.
I would expect someone who wants to run my country to go forward with all the motions so that people can observe what hes doing.
14:35 < Maverick> I'm a gaywad
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