National pride

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National pride

Postby Vorlin » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:59 pm

Hey all...I've got a question for you guys. Being from other countries especially, how do you guys look at national pride? I hope it's a lot better than what we have here in the US where people slap an american flag sticker on their gas-guzzling SUV and call that pride. Here in Florida, puerto ricans have more pride with their little flag hanging from the rearview mirror than most people I talk with. It's not something I ask every person I see, but I like to think we have a lot of people who'd stand up for the flag that bears 13 red and white stripes and 50 stars. Unfortunately, not many think that way. These are the same people that talk during the anthem or stand up, remove their hat, and put their hand over their heart when the pledge of allegiance is being said.

It's simple to have pride for your country. I know I do. Flag-burning being allowed as a freedom of speech just horrifies me and I'd use said freedom to beat the living crap out of whoever burns one in front of me. That just seems to be the ultimate "Fuck you" to the military that defends those colors and the country that it represents.

Just looking for thoughts and comments on it...I know it could get pretty heated because some people have differing opinions, and that's fine, I'm just looking for other opinions than just my own.

I thought to post this after someone sent me an email about our military and I liked it enough to put it on my server. As you read it, it's directly quoted (unless I corrected a spelling mistake) so it's not my work at all and I don't know who originally came up with it, but here it is:

Tribute to the military
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Postby Shippwreck » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:07 pm

Huh, well ATM i'm a bit disgusted with the English government and i have always thought that Americans in general have MORE pride for their contry than the Brits... but then thats just my point of view and i'm sure there are plenty that would disagree.

Personally ATM emigration to another country looks appealing, i can't stand all the bloody taxes and wasted money here... and i see a lot of it wasted working in the bloody NHS :roll:
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Postby Panama Red » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:21 pm

That's a nice tribute, I do see a few of them over the course of time, and yes they are allways American.

Sometimes tbh the chest thumping can get annoying, but I attribute that to "envy". I am of course ex-military so I was always impressed with the toy's you guy's have, not so much the sailors, sheesh after 3 cdn beers they were sloshed (cheap drunk I guess) :lol: all in all though I admired the fact that the US Military played for keeps. Regardless of the politics, if a job needed doing, then it got done.

I like the fact it brings home the ages involved, some of those who are in their 20's and living on the dole should read this and maybe realise there are 18 yrs old (possibly 17yrs old if they lied about age) over in harms way, while they sit around doing squat.

What I find reprehensible though, and it happens to all services in all countries US/UK/Canada is while their troops are slogging it out, the politicians are finding ways to rip them off, take away the little perks they once had.

Bottom line to me IMHO is if you don't like what is going on, then direct your feelings to those in power who make these decisions and not direct it at the troops who are on the front lines.

All they want...Canadian/American/British troops is to know that back home we have their back's...if you don't think they hear this crap about pulling out and running, think again, they hear it and it is bad for morale.
Ask any Vietnam Vet about those things...


I fully support our troops over in Afghanistan, and I think more then ever there are a lot of Canadian's who think the same way, espescially in light of all of the disgusting things that have come to light about how the Canadian politician's have allowed our Military Services to rot and wither over the last 30yrs.

I sailed on a ship (HMCS Saguenay http://www.pbase.com/kiml/sag ) which was at the time her keel was laid one of the World's most modern warships, yet here I was in 1986 sailing on her, we for purely economic reasons will work our equipment into the ground or buy second hand...just disgusting...
(wanted to get this in before HT arrives.... :mad: )
Last edited by Panama Red on Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vorlin » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:25 pm

Good point there, Shipp...I used to think that we had a lot of pride as well..but then I moved out on my own, went to different cities here and there, and got to see what the real world was like. The whole rose-colored view I had before has long been gone.

Honestly, I think it degrades with every non-english person that somehow makes it into the country because they could give a rat's ass about what the flag really means and how we got started. Puerto ricans are the worst, I think...waving their little flag around, spouting off how great their country is, and 90% of the time, they're not even legal and are over here on a green card or on one that's expired. Ship them all back I say...whatever goodyear tire they floated over on, send them back.
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Postby Aspman » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:26 pm

Plenty of National pride up here, it's just all a bit misdirected, often used by the violent minority to justify a punch-up.
Certainly always swilling about.

Easier to show a bit aof national pride abroad when your a Scot rather than an Englishman. we tend to be welcomed with open arms, often not so friendly for our neighbours.

English nationalism got highjacked by beer bellied football hooligans and seemed to become a bit of an embarressment. They seem to been having trouble getting it back.

Look at foreign football matches.

Scots are generally encouraged to visit. Often befriended and looked after by locals. Scots causing trouble tend to get sorted out by other Scots the national reputation abroad is a source of price and is protected. When your abroad you are part of the Tartan army. A drunk scot is funny not threatening.

English football fans are not quite so welcome abroad. By reputation they are sought out by trouble making national hooligan groups (Turkey for one example). This kicks off the English (obviously if you're getting attacked), the reputation mean they get harsher treatment/less leeway from local cops and are often reported unfairly at home. This just feeds the vicious circle.
Also the English fans abroad don't seem to be as 'together' they often wear the strips of they're local teams rather than the nantional shirt.

they're are no more or less hooligans in England than Scotland (per capita) but the Scots will get away with more. all down to reputation.
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Postby Maverick » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:28 pm

Being an American (and proud of it), I agree with you Vorlin. Burn a flag in front of me, you might as well be begging me for an asskicking, cuz I'll beat the feck out of anyone that tries that shit in front of me.

I'm not always proud of what my country does as far as world events are concerned - we always seem to meddle where we maybe shouldn't. That being said, I support my country - I support our troops. Those men and women have more bravery than I can imagine, else I would be there with them. They go out and do what most of couldn't - and they risk their lives doing it. For freedom, yes. For our way of life, yes.

I wanted to join the Navy when I was in high school, wanted to be a pilot - was told that I'd never have a chance of becoming a pilot because of my eyesight (I wear contacts). Was I dissappointed, yes. Did I have the courage to sign up anyway and perform some other job, no. I salute the men and women who do.....

Too bad it takes events like 9/11 for everyone to be patriotic - my how that's faded in these last five years..... :roll:
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Postby Vorlin » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:36 pm

Hehe, very good post Dalek and yes, let's get our talks in before catch and HT show up!

I've always hated how our politicians rip off our military as well. Some tv show did an interview with 100 politicians, just asking them if they had any sons or daughters serving overseas. Of course, a majority of them got all pissed off and whatnot, but the answer was always 'no'. Want to know how many had sons/daughters over in the active military? FREAKING ONE. So based on percentage, 1% of 100 "congressmen" had active military serving kids. That made me want to go vomit with disgust. You know damned well that the Bush daughters wouldn't ever have to do anything like that..not even JROTC and that's a laughable joke in comparison.

While congress votes on their own payraises every year, the military man/woman makes less than 25,000. There are people ON WELFARE that make more than that and if that doesn't make one think, I don't know what does. Sure, we have all the jokes about the military, like how the army are "stump jumpers" and those that serve in the "Chair Force" don't have to do much, etc...but man, I have ULTIMATE respect for those men and women. We had one guy come back home from Iraq and the entire apartment building he was in was all decorated with signs and such. If I knew who he was, I'd go up, give him a hundred bucks, and shake his hand.

Politicians will never have to defend the country they tear down and I seriously believe they're mostly all corrupt. Over here, you don't see hide nor hair of anyone in office, whether it's state or otherwise..but damn, when it's voting time, they've got all the signs out and they're standing on the corner waving at you like they know you. I can't stand that...

Kick them all out without benefits and start over, I say.

EDIT ADD: Yeah, Mav, I'm with you...I don't agree with what our politicians put us into, or what our president deems "worthy" of getting into...but I'll always support the military. They don't get a choice where they go and the worst thing of it all is that when they get there, they don't even get to use military strategy..that's all driven from DC. Remember Vietnam? Yeah, let's not let the commander IN THE FIELD make the call, nah, let's let some fat-ass in DC make that call.
Last edited by Vorlin on Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shippwreck » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:37 pm

Yeah, you've got a point there Asp, i mean most people would show there pride for there country by flying there flag... now almost noone in the UK would fly the Union Jack as it stands for all 4, not there OWN nation... and the English don't fly the George Cross unless its a football match :roll:

That means that the immedeate assumption when you see someone with the George cross is that they are football mad... not neccesarily in a bad way, just that they are flying it to support the football team and not as a show of pride for the country.

Its only in recent years the George cross has been flown for footie matches properly as again your right in saying that in its history it has been badly hi-jacked by people out JUST to cause trouble :sad:
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Postby Aspman » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:45 pm

Its only in recent years the George cross has been flown for footie matches properly as again your right in saying that in its history it has been badly hi-jacked by people out JUST to cause trouble


There is hope. Look up Scotlands reputation abroad in the 70s. Terrible hooligan problems 15 years later we had the self policing Tartan Army and a glowing reputation for the fans.

England just need to ditch the Eng-Ger-Lund mob.

If you walked into a bar in Scotland and started slagging the country you wouldn't walk out. Do it in Glasgow and you'd go out the back door in several trash bags the rest getting mopped up.
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Postby Vorlin » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:26 pm

Hehe, I wouldn't walk into a scottish/irish/english bar as an American and start trashing said country...we're not really liked by a lot of countries even though the vast majority of the population isn't what the politicians make us look like. :sad: :sad:
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Postby Panama Red » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:55 pm

Vorlin wrote:Hehe, I wouldn't walk into a scottish/irish/english bar as an American and start trashing said country...we're not really liked by a lot of countries even though the vast majority of the population isn't what the politicians make us look like. :sad: :sad:


That's the sad part of it, I know...when sailing into a lot of ports with the US, their lads used to get a lotta flack from the locals, because of Uncle Sam.


On the funnier side of things though....
It used to get us (little ol Sub with 67 of us) when pulling into St Thomas VI after a carrier (5,000 plus all with full wallets) has been there and the fecking prices for the luverly ladies has gone through the roof, try it on Cdn funds....Lol... :lol: :lol: (Spend Spend those greenbacks....)
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Postby Kwiep » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:58 pm

To me nationalism doesn't mean much. It's starting to mean alittle more since I traced back my family's place of residence wich has been the netherlands for like at least 400 years (further back is a bitch to trace).

I have some degree of respect for the queen, since I like the idea of a queen (or a king) and what goes with it and because she in fact manages to act like a queen without getting into all kinds of political hassle, lies, defaces blah blah. I'm however also aware of the history of our royal family. The dutch became independant on their own, starting with a few cities who resisted the spanish (80 year war) ending in a sovereign (republic) nation inside the holy roman empire (or something). The first dutch "ruler" happened to have played an important role as a military commander, later the Orange family turned royal making the Netherlands a monarchy.

I feel no particular "submissiveness" to the royal family and I'd definatly not die for it or for the netherlands for that mather. If for example the french would "conquer" the netherlands now, I wouldn't exactly mind living under french rule (as it is now). I'd die for my family though. I also have a tremendous repect for soldiers of any nation. For personal reasons I'd prefer the dutch military over any other. I do take special pride if dutch soldiers pulled something off.

The flag holds little special value to me. Altough I think it has a strong ceremonial value (military funerals) and has its importance in diplomatic situations (in front of UN buidlings or something as a sign of mutual respect and peace), I wouldn't feel personally attacked if someone would burn a flag. I'd be amazed by the persons stupidity. It's provoking agression and really has no positive value but a few nice video shots. I think the concept of a flag is cool though. I think its arrogant to blatantly put up your flag everywhere for no particular reason.

When I graduated from highschool (the dutch equivalent anyway) I hang out a pirate flag because:
1) we didn't even have a dutch flag
2) a pirates flag looks cool
3) everyone hangs out a dutch flag, so I was doing the punk thing. A friend of mine hung out a belgian flag (and he wasn't belgian). My brother hung out a viking flag when he graduated (and he isn't a viking).
4) no other reason

I think alot of the dutch share this view. Also alot of friend in the military. They fight for a cause or a belief, not for a nation. The basic considerations are that nations will change, no nation is the ultimate nation and no nation will be arround forever.



Now football is a different story.
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Postby Vorlin » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:14 pm

Good responses and I appreciate everyone posting. It's good to see different views from different countries and the like.

Kwiep, good post and it's interesting to see the different mentalities over something like national pride. I think my own beliefs just stem from the fact that A: I've lived in another country where freedom didn't really exist for anyone unless you're royal family or filthy rich and B: the US got started by a bunch of hooligan criminals running from the english iron rule (go convicts! HAH!) and hence, the thirteen original colonies had to make their own road while defending against invasions.

Over here, it's considered a freedom of speech to burn a flag and to me, I don't care if it's a rinky-dinky half-plastic, half-nylon hand-sized american flag, it still serves as a "F this country" to those that served the country and even to those that gave the ultimate sacrifice (albeit, they're not there physically).

It's the same thing in consideration that when 9/11 happened five years ago, there were people young and old dancing in the streets in Afghanistan, waving guns around, etc. I say nuke the fuckers off the face of the planet; Disneyworld needs another glass parking lot. Sure, my mentality in that regard makes me sound like a typical american that wants to blow shit up, but I'm really not. I just think that if someone wants to fuck around with the US, they better get ready for a whole lot of technology and bombings because it's coming. The general that led the Japanese fleet against Pearl Harbor, upon victory in the surprise attack, is quoted for having said "I believe we have done nothing more than awaken a sleeping giant" (or something to that extent). And we all know what happened after that.

/rant - my bad, I can tend to go off on things like this, hehe...

Back on topic, I liked how you hung out a pirate flag, hehe!
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Postby Kwiep » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:29 pm

Haha! I prolly have a picture of it lying arround somewhere.

As for the flag burning, what I also ment to say is that I don't feel the need to punish those people as they are no threath. They are the cannon fodder, weird fanatics whose only job it is to provoke and die as fast as possible. I don't intend to pleasure them in letting them provoke me. I bet Osama bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein, the guys that mather so to speak, never even touched a US flag, let alone burn one or piss over one or something. Especially not in front of a camera.
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