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Panama Red
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Post: # 86347Post Panama Red
Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:56 pm

Egaladeist wrote:
even in WW2 the Germans couldn't stop the Resistance movement in France...Americans in Vietnam...the Russians in Afghanistan...Newfoundlanders in Toronto..:mad:
it's a lost cause before it even begins. ;)
:lol: :lol:


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Egaladeist
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Post: # 86348Post Egaladeist
Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:59 pm

Laurd Thunderin' Geeus :D

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Harry
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Post: # 86349Post Harry
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:22 pm

In a sense...actually they were asked to disband in 2002 to further peace negotiations...in 2002 they refused...a cease-fire was accepted on July 19th, 2007 that went into effect on July 20th...provided they were granted access to the negotiations in Sept 2007.

Guerrilla warfare can't be won through battles/war because you can't shoot an ideology...you can't bomb a principle...whether that's religious or through words political or extremism ...to defeat guerrilla warfare you need to win
And if they were not being withered down at every corner, dragged out of their beds every night, having most of their arms and ammunition supplies discovered, being stopped and searched on the street every time a player was recognised, being stopped and searched every time the went out in their car and being tracked every time they left the country there is no way the would be agreeing to a cease fire now.

They refused a ceasefire in 2002 because they were still able to wage a terrorist war...by mid 2006 they were not able to do so effectively.

And the only reason they were not able to do so effectively is solely down to the effectiveness of British soldiers and other security personnel on the ground.....
Last edited by Harry on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Egaladeist
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Post: # 86351Post Egaladeist
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:32 pm

by mid 2006 they were not able to do so effectively
Attacks continued into 2007...we could argue this point indefinitely but...the fact remains the IRA were never defeated...would likely never be defeated...for two reasons...politics and religion...

in Canada...the War Measures Act being invoked and the crush of the FLQ in Quebec didn't result in the demise of their ideology...the separatist movement in Quebec remains to be a force within the Province...

you cannot kill an idea with a gun. ;)

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Harbinger
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Post: # 86352Post Harbinger
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:38 pm

The Iraq conflict/war/whatever is only as complicated as we choose it to be. It would be as simple as reading a few codes in red envelopes and turning a few keys---entire situation resolved.

In retrospect, it almost seems like a Saddam Hussien was necessary for Iraq. A blood-thirsty savage was the only thing that could keep the other blood thirsty savages in check. They just need somebody to hate and somebody to kill--it doesn't seem to matter if it's a foriegner or their neighbor (/'s children even).

It's easy to be pious and say that a person is marginalizing when confronted by statements pro-nuking the #(*$ out of the middle east. However, name ONE positive influence the region has had toward humanity, science, culture, religion, medicine, etc, etc. If the whole region turned to ash tomorrow, the world wouldn't even blink so long as the refineries stayed intact.

Insurgence crushed, international terrorism all but obliterated aside from the Phillipines and perhaps India to a minor extent....sigh. If only things were so easy.
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Panama Red
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Post: # 86353Post Panama Red
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:39 pm

Egaladeist wrote:[

Attacks continued into 2007...we could argue this point indefinitely but...the fact remains the IRA were never defeated...would likely never be defeated...for two reasons...politics and religion...
Gotta correct ya on this one Eg, the "troubles" were only about religion up until such time as smuggling and selling drugs and robbing banks took over, which was about 1976, up until then the Irish were solid for Politics and Religion, but once money from the states started to dry up, they looked elsewhere for funds and they found it in selling drugs to all manner of youths of Ireland, Prod as well as Catholic, so religion went out the window...and they became known for what they truly were (on both sides IRA/UDA) murderous thugs.. :wink:
Last edited by Panama Red on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Harry
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Post: # 86354Post Harry
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:41 pm

Attacks continued into 2007/
Yep - that last word in my sentance is key: "by mid 2006 they were not able to do so effectively" - effectivley...

They operated but on a much lower scale for the reasons I stated in my previous post..the British Army did not allow them to operate - why because we became very good at fighting them at their own game.....

They have agreed to a ceasefire, they have agreed to stop agressive actions againt service and civillian personal alike...if they had the capacity to carry on they would have, but they haven't and they have agreed to a ceasefire...in my book that means they were defeated - they were all about violence and violence did not prevail....so they certainly didn't acheive the goals that they set out to...


As Jim points out they turned into nothing more than common criminals. Bank robbers, kidnappers, drug dealers and gun runners.
Last edited by Harry on Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Egaladeist
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Post: # 86355Post Egaladeist
Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:56 pm

Gotta correct ya on this one Eg...so religion went out the window...
Religion and politics was still their major recruiting card ;) They didn't solicit public support by offering the drug card ;)
in my book that means they were defeated
OK ;)

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Panama Red
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Post: # 86356Post Panama Red
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:19 am

Egaladeist wrote:[

Religion and politics was still their major recruiting card ;) They didn't solicit public support by offering the drug card ;)
Negative...politics was a recruiting card for the IRA (Sinn Fein) that's the political side of the IRA, the Paramiltary side recruited via drugs and other vices, who do you think they were targetting middle aged Irish? certainly not, as by the 80's both Catholic and Protestants who grew up hating each other during the 50's & 60's and early 70's were getting tired of the IRA and Paisley and wanted an end to it, but the money coming in from the drug trade and bank robbing was too lucrative for the Paramilitary side of the IRA to give up without a fight, and to recruit they set their sites on the youth and to do that they entice them with drugs and anything that looks sexy, don't forget this was the mid 70's the world was in a recession, thanks to OPEC and work was tight, so what the IRA was offering was an out. :wink:

Granted, any flyers passed out won't have the MJ on it, but I'm sure you know that, for most folks the religious issues had been put to bed, I've been to Dublin (1982) and the folks down there, who are just as much if not more Catholic then those living in the North, could care less about Belfast or Londonderry, or what goes on in the North, the Republic would be just fine as it is, South of Northern Ireland's borders... 8)
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Egaladeist
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Post: # 86357Post Egaladeist
Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:35 am

Well..the ticket wasn't ' come join the IRA and help us sell drugs and rob banks ' ;)

The support still came from those following the political/religious agenda of a Free and United Ireland ;)

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Post: # 86361Post alleyCat
Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:46 am

Harbinger wrote:The Iraq conflict/war/whatever is only as complicated as we choose it to be. It would be as simple as reading a few codes in red envelopes and turning a few keys---entire situation resolved.

In retrospect, it almost seems like a Saddam Hussien was necessary for Iraq. A blood-thirsty savage was the only thing that could keep the other blood thirsty savages in check. They just need somebody to hate and somebody to kill--it doesn't seem to matter if it's a foriegner or their neighbor (/'s children even).

It's easy to be pious and say that a person is marginalizing when confronted by statements pro-nuking the #(*$ out of the middle east. However, name ONE positive influence the region has had toward humanity, science, culture, religion, medicine, etc, etc. If the whole region turned to ash tomorrow, the world wouldn't even blink so long as the refineries stayed intact.

Insurgence crushed, international terrorism all but obliterated aside from the Phillipines and perhaps India to a minor extent....sigh. If only things were so easy.
Hey Harby, I mean no disrespect, but this is exactly the kind of attitude that I hate.

How could bombing something out of existence be the right way to do anything? What do you prove? That you are right because you won?

Also, I don't think you have done much history (well... I admit neither have I) but a great many things have come out of Iran and the Middle East, not to mention the origination of freedom of thought for the modern era when European nations were going through the dark ages.

I provide this link to give you a starting point... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

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Egaladeist
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Post: # 86363Post Egaladeist
Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:18 am

Been watching the Presidential Address right now,,,hummmmmmm,,,how can I describe it?...hummmmmmm...

20 minutes of unadulterated bull-crap :D

The only reasonable solution to stability in Iraq is let the Arabs take over...gather a coalition of Arab nations to go in and replace the US troops...

then...

send the troops back home.

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|3lack|ce
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Post: # 86369Post |3lack|ce
Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:41 am

Glass parking lot.

I'd say nuke the Irish too, but Mrs|ce'd shoot me since she's Irish.

Free Scotland!
|ce
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Harbinger
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Post: # 86374Post Harbinger
Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:26 am

alleyCat wrote:
Harbinger wrote:The Iraq conflict/war/whatever is only as complicated as we choose it to be. It would be as simple as reading a few codes in red envelopes and turning a few keys---entire situation resolved.

In retrospect, it almost seems like a Saddam Hussien was necessary for Iraq. A blood-thirsty savage was the only thing that could keep the other blood thirsty savages in check. They just need somebody to hate and somebody to kill--it doesn't seem to matter if it's a foriegner or their neighbor (/'s children even).

It's easy to be pious and say that a person is marginalizing when confronted by statements pro-nuking the #(*$ out of the middle east. However, name ONE positive influence the region has had toward humanity, science, culture, religion, medicine, etc, etc. If the whole region turned to ash tomorrow, the world wouldn't even blink so long as the refineries stayed intact.

Insurgence crushed, international terrorism all but obliterated aside from the Phillipines and perhaps India to a minor extent....sigh. If only things were so easy.
Hey Harby, I mean no disrespect, but this is exactly the kind of attitude that I hate.

How could bombing something out of existence be the right way to do anything? What do you prove? That you are right because you won?

Also, I don't think you have done much history (well... I admit neither have I) but a great many things have come out of Iran and the Middle East, not to mention the origination of freedom of thought for the modern era when European nations were going through the dark ages.

I provide this link to give you a starting point... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
Sorry Alleycat, I should have specified. Last century, or perhaps two? The fall of the Middle East was actually due to its great political stability. Empires such as the Ottoman brought such stability that nothing had to change--ever. So while the Europeans were busy inventing new ways to kill eachother, counquer, and one-up eachother economically, the inadvertent consequences were scientific, medical, and engineering advancements. I believe this is what we call irony.

See, you're getting hung up on ideology. You need to look at it from more of a Darwinian perspective. What would we prove? Absolutely nothing. Proving anything isn't the point. Resolving the conflict with YOUR best interests is all that matters.

If I were to tell one of my patients that perhaps instead of trying to vaccinate their infection/disease and instead were investing in options where they could co-exist with their life-threatening ailment....I'd get laughed at, sued, then locked up in a mental institution.

People get caught up in defunct morality and subjectivism (not directing this Alley, I mean no offense). What the wonderful word of political correctness has thwarted, is the fact that you can objectively judge cultures, civilizations, and cultures as being superior to another. Furthermore, you can also jugde others to be a detriment to your own.

The truth is, the Islamic terrorists are playing by Darwin's rules why while we are playing by some pseudo-aggressive, semi-military, ultimately worthless rules. Proving anything isn't the point. Success is all that matters.
"I am never wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken."

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Aspman
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Post: # 86377Post Aspman
Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:11 am

the irony is that the middle (and far) east was a hotbed of science and philosophy long before the renaissance occurred in Europe.

This trend of fundamentalist hate mongering is relatively recent. Plus fundamentalism is no longer restricted to Islam. The US has it's fair share of fundamentalist Christian (usually creationists).

There are too many people around now ready to pull us back to the dark ages.

The ill of the world = religion
Nuke God.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
- Denis Diderot (1713-1784)

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