God, please respond

[Egaladeist]

I realize that if you exist you must be pretty busy....but please respond.

Billions of people believe in some kind of personal deity.
Billions believe in some form of Religion ( this would, of course include Atheists ).
Millions are devoted practitioners of those Religions ( this would, of course include Atheists ).
Millions are fanatical representatives of those Religions ( this would, of course include Atheists ).

Are they all deluded?

Are they all sucked in by centuries of brainwashing that they can't conceive existence without some kind of personal watchdog god?

Is mankind that easily manipulated by history and tradition?

Any reasonable person, who is not swayed by fear, or some other manipulative bias or construct, will conclude that either god does not exist or god, by any other name, is not what we think it is.

The fact is, we don't know. Anyone who thinks they do know is deluded.

So, we can't agree that there is a god, and we can't completely deny that some form of a god exists.

Because a rational, calm thinking person, will always conclude, baring evidence to the contrary, that they just do not know.

So, what does this say about the millions of devoted followers of theism and atheism? Who have set a path in their mind that they know, beyond any doubt, that they are right?

Rationally I do not believe in any kind of a personal deity, it just does not make sense on any level. For example, what possible reason would there be to have a child born to abject poverty in a Country in despair only to die from disease and malnutrition. Religion would say it's a lesson or have another excuse. Seriously? Torturing innocent children to teach us some lesson? That's your god?

As to some other form of a god, maybe. The jury is still out.

[DaFoxx]

I believe in no gods in any way shap or form, all life is random chance, and all religions are out to get anything they can from their followers, today it is money, it used to be power over the congregation, and everything was biased against sex, you want sex, you have to get married, and it has to be in a church, and it has to be a religious ceremony

utter guff

I have lived and loved as I saw fit, I have got feck all to show for it, and know plenty of people in the same boat, the only people with any 'good' life experiences, are just living their lives their way too, it just went their way is all

also know a lot of good people suffering from some nasty diseases through no fault of their own, who absolutely do not 'deserve' to go through the bad stuff, and am aware of people for who, life has been one easy living one way street of 'good' things happening to them

all have occured without any form of divine intervention, it is all random chance

hich, seeing as we live on a rock spinning at 1000 mph wjhilst travelling at 65 000 mph around its own local star, which is, in turn blasting around the milky way on an orbit of 225 MILLION years, to say that anyone / anything has any power of nything here, is just kind of ludicrus

[Egaladeist]

I think it depends upon what the definitions is. Religion generally thinks of a god as a personal deity that takes an active interest in their lives, they can communicate with this deity through prayer or meditation or other means, and this deity guides them in some way...etc...

Some Religions and Philosophy see this deity as taking no interest on a personal level but an active interest collectively...

I personally, given the mental and physical condition of mankind, individually and collectively, find both of these to be absurd.

.....

Then you have the Religions and Philosophies that argue reincarnation or rebirth, and to some extent that would explain the discrepancies in the human condition. Now not all believe the same thing, there are just as many versions of reincarnation and rebirth as there are Religions. And most can be dismissed as easily.

However, the general argument cannot as easily be dismissed. We all know the Universe is not infinite, it is finite, it has a set mass. That's why it is in a constant state of renewal/recycling. It must recycle because it is finite. Now some people believe that applies to everything, physical and mental. That just as your physical body dies and is recycled, so is your mental side.

Of course that's a simplification but that theory does have some basis of fact.

.....

And just as reincarnationists and rebirthers rely less upon a deity and more upon philosophy to argue their point, although, like I said earlier, beliefs vary, there are the philosophers that argue that there is a deity but takes no active interest at all in or lives. This deity is like gravity, it sets everything in motion, and maintains, but is merely the mechanics. Like a machine producing a product with no personal interest in the product it is producing.

.....

Now dismiss everything you know about Religion and Philosophy.

.....

And ask yourself 1 question. Does justice exist?

[Egaladeist]

That's where it gets complicated.......Justice.

Ignore god, any version of god, any semblance of religion or philosophy.

Does Justice exist?

There are 2 choices, it does, or it doesn't.

Either Justice is a man made construct that has no basis in reality, because we can make it anything we want it to be, or it does exist as a natural order or a part thereof.

Justice ( and its enforcement ) is either completely in the hands of man, or it isn't.

If Justice is a man made construct ( by evolution or by design ) then in reality there is no such thing as law apart from what man decided to have in order to live together. That means, that if you can get away with something, you have done nothing wrong, all you did was avoid being prosecuted by man. Moral law would not exist. Bad people are not evil. Horrible things that happen to innocent people are not crimes, except in the eye's of those making the laws.

If we make laws, then the society that cuts off a person's hands for theft, and the society that says that's cruel, are both right. Law is subjective based upon that society and the law they are willing to accept. Each society has the ability to make whatever law that suits them, and are not more or less vulgar except in personal interpretation.

Murder, is not more or less offensive than jaywalking, except to man. Essentially a man could murder, rape, pillage, be a Hitler or an Amin, and has done nothing wrong in the eyes of nature, has committed no moral atrocity, outside of man's view.

If Justice is a man made social order....then...as an example...one day we formed a group and that group decided that it would be a good idea not to kill each other so they made a rule...no killing each other...but perfectly acceptable to kill those not in their group....if another group decided it was ok to kill each other then that would be just as acceptable. Because it can be whatever we want it to be.

If Justice is not a man made construct then...we would be subject to it, it would be enforced, and we would have no control over it.

[DaFoxx]

Justice IS a man made construct, we used to live in savage times, and death was a constant threat, we evolved to live in larger social groups, and to ensure that life was able to continue, we instigated laws to allow us to know what was permissable, and what was not.
also Atheists -

Billions of people believe in some kind of personal deity.
Billions believe in some form of Religion ( this would, of course include Atheists ).
Millions are devoted practitioners of those Religions ( this would, of course include Atheists ).
Millions are fanatical representatives of those Religions ( this would, of course include Atheists ).

we / atheists do not subscribe to ANY deity, nor do we practice any religion, nor are we representatives of any religion
the very term atheist should tell you we are not believers in any way way shape or form

[Egaladeist]

The only problem I have with justice being a construct of man is enforcement.

If justice is merely a construct then if you were smart enough to do horrible things and get away with it you essentially cheat justice. Natural law would have no effect, would not care what you did, or to who, or how many you did it to. Death would be an escape from punishment.

Think of the worst possible person, going through life committing the most heinous of crimes, never getting caught, living to a ripe old age then dying a peaceful death in his/her sleep. Nature would consider this person of having done nothing wrong. Committed no act of immorality. And successfully defeated justice by dying with never being punished for breaches of common ( man made ) law.

We have a natural tendency to want the guilty to be punished. For victims of crimes to be compensated. If we can't provide that justice and compensation here we have a tendency to believe that it must exist elsewhere. After death. That doesn't make it true, but at the same time there is an argument that can be brought forth. Empathy.

We like to think that the woman who is raped, tortured, then buried alive to slowly suffocate and die, didn't go through all that with no hope of compensation.
And we like to think that the person who did that to her will be caught and punished for the crime, if not in this life, at least in death.

Still....doesn't make it true.

[DaFoxx]

still a man made construct though
for all the reasons posted above

should said felon get away with a life committing heinous crimes, and dies peacefully, then yes, he has escaped justice
but the rules / laws are ALWAYS there to do the greatest good for the greatest number, they were NEVER there to be for all